Classical Slipjoint Body Shape Definitions

[Absinthe]

"Not sure how to define obscenity, but I know it when I see it."

It's kind of the same with classical slipjoint body designs. When you see a serpentine, peanut, Barlow, swayback, sowbelly, congress, coke bottle.... And so forth you say "look at that <insert name>". But has anyone ever seen a book or other documentation that actually defines them? I mean in an engineering sense of the word. Things like length to width ratio that would differentiate a cigar from a sunfish, or senator? Head to butt ratio like for a Barlow or electrician's knife? Arc segment degrees like the curve on the top of a dogleg vs the butt end? Or even the actual ogee or sine proportion for a serpentine, slim trapper, switch?

Not to mention bolster shapes and proportions, and pivot positions?

Not to mention the a-symmetrical designs. Like the hunter, or others that seem to have an index finger groove?

I am not looking for a reference to where I can find patterns to make a knife from. I have plenty of them. I am looking to catalog and define "classic slipjoint" pocket knife body shapes. I have been looking at Case brothers and Queen cutlery old catalogs, and I can see them. And they describe them using terms like canoe and serpentine and switch, Gunstock, saddle horn, and so on. But they use these terms in much the same way someone might say "square" or "blue".

I am quite sure someone came up with a shape and used a compass, straight edge, and French curve, and when it appealed to their eye they gave it a name, made a template to trace and sold it. Then if they didn't patent it, or if they did and it went out, the next company simply copied it. Or better yet, decided they liked everything about it except one thing that bugged them and changed it but it would be mostly recognizable as what it had been copied from. Like case Barlow has a really flat curve on the small top end where Queen has a pretty much half circle on both the top and butt, but they still sell as a Barlow because they are both similarly proportioned and both have that approximately 1/3 top bolster and no butt bolster.

Anyway, if it has already been done, I would love to get my hands on it. However, if not, it is a project I would like to undertake.

Plenty exists on blade types. But the body shapes ... Not so much. Other that pictorial examples.

[Gunsil]

You say "body", most knife folks say "pattern" for knife shape and "frame" for body. "Levines Guide to Knives and Their Values" is the "bible" of knife collecting and does list most pocket knife patterns and gives a little history of the pattern and shows examples of these patterns by different companies. There were a few editions, all out of print, with the fourth edition being the most sought after.

[RobesonsRme.com]

According to Levine, who used the term “Handle-Die Shape”, each manufacturer had a Pattern Book and each example of any of their patterns, adhered to that in the book.

That, of course, would mean that, most likely, there are differences in the common patterns from maker to maker, so nailing down dimensions and concise measurements are probably not possible. A range of dimensions are possible though and that is pretty much what Levine gave us in his monumental work in Books I through IV.

His books and by that I mean the ones in which he, himself participated in their publication, are available, but have acquired a mystique that drives their prices, at times, beyond reasonable.

I’ve never actually read anything beyond LG-IV, so I cannot speak to their content, but others have said they are equally informative. They were published without his input or approval, so he has a case of bitter grapes re’ them. Chiefly, his major complaint was the across the board increase in values based solely on the inflationary factors from the time of publication of LG-IV and the 5th Edition. Knife collecting values simply do not work that way.

So, what happened to the pattern books of all those quality American knife manufacturers that are no longer with us? I suspect some are in private collections and others simply went out with the trash.

I was offered a vast hoard of original Robeson factory paperwork many years ago. No idea what was included. It was expensive and I passed on it.

[Absinthe]

You say "body", most knife folks say "pattern" for knife shape and "frame" for body. "Levines Guide to Knives and Their Values" is the "bible" of knife collecting and does list most pocket knife patterns and gives a little history of the pattern and shows examples of these patterns by different companies. There were a few editions, all out of print, with the fourth edition being the most sought after.

Thanks for the clarification on the proper terms.
So "frame" is what I must be looking for. Thanks. I will also keep an eye out for Levine's. There is one by Blade of similar title, I wasn't sure if one replaces the other or not since it didn't mention Levine in any of the credits or descriptions.

[Absinthe]

According to Levine, who used the term “Handle-Die Shape”, each manufacturer had a Pattern Book and each example of any of their patterns, adhered to that in the book.

That, of course, would mean that, most likely, there are differences in the common patterns from maker to maker, so nailing down dimensions and concise measurements are probably not possible. A range of dimensions are possible though and that is pretty much what Levine gave us in his monumental work in Books I through IV.

His books and by that I mean the ones in which he, himself participated in their publication, are available, but have acquired a mystique that drives their prices, at times, beyond reasonable.

I’ve never actually read anything beyond LG-IV, so I cannot speak to their content, but others have said they are equally informative. They were published without his input or approval, so he has a case of bitter grapes re’ them. Chiefly, his major complaint was the across the board increase in values based solely on the inflationary factors from the time of publication of LG-IV and the 5th Edition. Knife collecting values simply do not work that way.

So, what happened to the pattern books of all those quality American knife manufacturers that are no longer with us? I suspect some are in private collections and others simply went out with the trash.

I was offered a vast hoard of original Robeson factory paperwork many years ago. No idea what was included. It was expensive and I passed on it.

So I will also keep an eye out for "pattern books". A range is sufficient for things that have been reproduced by so many different companies. A lot of the older catalogs have illustrations that are pretty straight on, as far as angles go. If one assumes them to be artistically to scale I could start from there.

It would seem that mathematically for any given "round end bolster" one should be able to calculate the tang size, though I am not 100% convinced.

[Absinthe]

Just found Levine's 5 under 30 so I pulled the trigger on it. That will be a start.

[Steve Warden]

And thus begins the long, slipper slide down the rabbit hole

Have fun! And while you may have the books, don't forget the vast wealth of information right here from the fine folks of AAPK.

[Mumbleypeg]

Just found Levine's 5 under 30 so I pulled the trigger on it. That will be a start.

You done good! I have both Levine IV and V (V is the one he got into a snit over with the publisher, and subsequently dissed it). However V is pretty much identical to IV, in most cases the prose in V is word-for-word to IV. (Much of the content isn’t written by Levine anyway - he edited the books). The big difference between IV and V is the value estimates given for the knives - as old as the books are now the values are all out of date anyway, so there’s no reason I can see for folks continuing to bash edition V. They’re now long out of print so Levine isn’t making anything from their resale as second hand books. JMO

Ken

[Absinthe]

So other than Levine's, Case's old catalogs, and Queens old catalogs what else to look for?

[Mumbleypeg]

So other than Levine's, Case's old catalogs, and Queens old catalogs what else to look for?

All of Sargent’s Guides are excellent. All contain info and photos of Case patterns, each also contains at least one other brand, such as Remington, Queen, etc.

Someone should probably make this old thread a ‘sticky’ just to answer questions like yours.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42388

Ken