Camillus Three-Line Stamp??

[tjmurphy]

I just bought a knife on ebay, a Camillus four-blade with what I think is a stamp that I've not seen yet. Would you folks look at the stamp and see what you think? Is USA hidden under the bolster? Is the main blade stamp acutally a four-line? The knife and blades themselves are shot, bought the stamp.

Here is a Camillus stamp chart that JerryD put together for comparison:

[jerryd6818]

To me, it looks very much like this '41-'46 stamp. And I don't think USA is hidden under the bolster. JMO.

[tjmurphy]

If the USA stamp is absent, do you think it would place the stamp somewhere between the 1916 and the 1941-46?

[orvet]

I have that same stamp on 3 knives.
Two knives are the George Washington pen knife reproduction of 1932.
So we have a pattern using that stamp with a known production date.

I also have this easy open jack with the same stamp.

I also have a picture of a 1933 Worlds Fair knife that uses the 4 line stamp Jerry posted.

This pic courtesy of one of the AAPK members

1933 Worlds Fair knife Cam Tang.jpg (25.86 KiB) Viewed 3278 times

It is my as yet unproven theory that shortly after WWI, perhaps about 1919, Camillus went to the 3 line stamp that is seen on TJ's knife and the first two pics I posted above. Then about 1933 Camillus added the 4th line "U.S.A." to their stamps ans continued that until 1946 when they introduced the first of the post war 3 line stamps.

[tjmurphy]

That makes perfectly good sense to me Dale and also answer's a question about a Camillus Standard Scout that I've been wondering about. The knife has the four-line stamp and has the creasent can opener that Phil listed as being probably(?) pre-WWII. I was thinking that the knife was just-post-WWII (1946) but now see that that was a wrong guess. This would also say that JerryD's stamp chart should be up-dated to reflect that four-line stamp as 1933-1946 rather than the '41-'46. Here's the Standard Scout which I will now identify as 1933-19??

[carrmillus]

t. j.,thats a winner, never seen one like it..... .....

[orvet]

Here's the Standard Scout which I will now identify as 1933-19??

I think there is still room for discussion on dates, but the 4 line stamp end date is very well established at 1946.
I need to get in touch with Tom Williams again and run my current Camillus dates theory by him for his feedback.

Tom is the one who told me that dating Camillus knives by tang stamps is pretty iffy.
One on the reasons he mentioned was that anyone could grab an old stamp off the shelf where they were kept and use them on a new blade. But he was very definite that the only use of the 4 line stamp after 1946 was on the Marine Raider stiletto and the USCG reproductions. On those two repros they used the original stamps.

[Vit_213]

It is my as yet unproven theory that shortly after WWI, perhaps about 1919, Camillus went to the 3 line stamp that is seen on TJ's knife and the first two pics I posted above. Then about 1933 Camillus added the 4th line "U.S.A." to their stamps ans continued that until 1946 when they introduced the first of the post war 3 line stamps.

I have a Signal Corps knife with 4 lines, and I think it dating to 1919-1930. This does not fit into your theory

[jerryd6818]

I quote Dale quite often, "Using the tang stamp alone to date Camillus knives, is a fools game." (I'm paraphrasing of course)

[orvet]

I have a Signal Corps knife with 4 lines, and I think it dating to 1919-1930. This does not fit into your theory

If that is what I think it is, a 3-3/8" WWI Signal Corps knife where the screwdriver lock is released by pressing down on the closed spear blade then you are absolutely correct, it does not fit my theory.

But that is why it is a theory, and not a fact.

Once again I return to what Jerry said:

I quote Dale quite often, "Using the tang stamp alone to date Camillus knives, is a fools game." (I'm paraphrasing of course)

Actually I that is an adaption of a quote from Bernard Levine; "Dating knives by tang stamps alone is a fools errand."

[carrmillus]

I just bought a knife on ebay, a Camillus four-blade with what I think is a stamp that I've not seen yet. Would you folks look at the stamp and see what you think? Is USA hidden under the bolster? Is the main blade stamp acutally a four-line? The knife and blades themselves are shot, bought the stamp.

3.jpg

Here is a Camillus stamp chart that JerryD put together for comparison:

Camillus.jpg

t.j., just looked at all 6 of my 3 line knives, they are all like yours except for my tuxedo knife, which is curved 3-line-goin's says 1902 on it??????............ ..........................

[Vit_213]

If that is what I think it is, a 3-3/8" WWI Signal Corps knife where the screwdriver lock is released by pressing down on the closed spear blade

No, screwdriver has the same construction as the blade - without locking.

[Vit_213]

But he was very definite that the only use of the 4 line stamp after 1946 was on the Marine Raider stiletto and the USCG reproductions. On those two repros they used the original stamps.

U.S. Coast Guard Knife #S702 Remember Perlharbor is a very interesting knife.
Quote from the Bladeforums.com:

I worked on the project for the U.S. Coast Guard knife shown above. I got a call from one of the guys in the Engineering Dept. and he wanted to see the records for the WWII Sailor's knife. I located all the production records and tang stamp information for him. He said he was basing the reproduction on parts that we used in the model #S-702 U.S. Coast Guard knife. That is the Camillus #425/2 pattern. The WWII era knife is a #425/1 pattern. The number after the / indicates the number of blades. I told him that the WWII era knife did not have a can-opener. The can-opener was not added until 1949.
Tom Williams

[orvet]

If that is what I think it is, a 3-3/8" WWI Signal Corps knife where the screwdriver lock is released by pressing down on the closed spear blade

No, screwdriver has the same construction as the blade - without locking.

Vit, is your knife 3-3/8" or 3-3/4"?

I don't have the GSA or DOD specs for the WWI Signal Corps knife, but everything I have read and seen and every example I have seen has a locking screwdriver. I am pretty sure it was specified in the specs that the screwdriver blade must lock open.
The screwdriver blade should lock in the open position and be released with downward pressure on the closed spear blade.

Maybe it was a later knife made for the Signal Corps in the early to mid 1930s during the transition from the old lock blade TL-29 to the newer liner locking (and larger) TL-29?

I will have to look up Mike Silvey at the OKCA show and see if he is aware of this non-locking SC knife.

The challenge of putting together the history of these knives is part of the fun of these old knives, and the fact that we will never know with 100% certainty that we are absolutely correct is challenging, frustrating and intriguing. That is what keeps me going researching and buying more knives to find new information and new old knives, just to be frustrated and perplexed all over again!

I must be sick with some sort of disease.
If I am sick, you know for sure I got the disease from an old knife!

[msteele6]

On the electrician knife it's pretty common for the locking mechanism on these knives to be worn to such an extent that the lock no longer works. Most people won't know about the mechanism and will force the screwdriver blade closed. A few rounds of this and the little catch will be worn down to such an extent that the knife will seem to be a normal non-locking variety.

The way to tell is to simply push down on the blade and watch to see if the backspring on the screwdriver is pushed down by this action. This part of the mechanism doesn't wear out. You can also peer down into the knife and actually see the locking mechanism if you know what you're looking for.

My bet is that the knife does have the lock. My reason is simple. Look at the kick on the blade.

[orvet]

That is true, but most slip joints will do the same thing if the kick or tang is not worn down.
I can do that with most Old Timer slip joints, Camillus', just about any brand depending on the design & wear on the kick.

[msteele6]

I don't believe that the kick on this knife is worn down. The tang of this knife is the way it was designed - without a kick. This was done to facilitate the tang's use as a means of depressing the backspring of the screwdriver blade, thus unlocking the screwdriver.

[Vit_213]

If that is what I think it is, a 3-3/8" WWI Signal Corps knife where the screwdriver lock is released by pressing down on the closed spear blade

Yes! This knife really has this locking mechanism and it works!
I do not understand why I was blind and could not see it before
Closed length is 92 mm (~3-5/8")

[tjmurphy]

Here's one I ran across on ebay but didn't buy it, and I'm kicking myself in the buttocks for not buying it. The question I have about the knife is: Is this a put-together knife or a combination of the Arc and three or four-line stamps that I've not seen before? The stamp on the secondary is an arc as would be expected but the stamp on the main is a little baffling to me in that, from what can be seen, it reads Camillus - Cutlery Co. - Camillus, NY. Would the combination of stamps be correct on the Cigar Jack?

This pic is of a small jack that I've had for a while now and show the combination of the Arc stamp on the secondary and a three-line on the main which reads Camillus - Cutlery Co. - New York

MVC-019F.JPG (48.57 KiB) Viewed 2869 times

[carrmillus]

t. j., if i had known you were bidding on this one, i wouldn't have bid on it!!...... .....i sent the guy a money order this morning!!.....sorry about that!!!....it's not a fake, according to goin's, this stamp(3 ilne straight marking on master blade, curved 3 line marking on secondary blade) was used in 1916...i really like this one, i've got 109 camillus knives, but i didn't have one of this pattern,love those wood handles, i think they are rosewood, any ideas???

[tjmurphy]

Not a problem, I did not bid on it. Was going to but didn't. It's a very neat knife. Glad you got it. Would this combination of stamps be just after the Camillus - Cutlery Co. - New York combo? Either rosewood or cocobolo, hard to tell them apart.

[carrmillus]

t. j., i can't tell from the photo if the 3rd line on the main is "new york" or "camillus, n.y"????.......when i get it , iwill let you know!!........... ..................

[tjmurphy]

If you click on my first pic in the OP, the third line for sure starts with a C and Goins does not show that combination of three-line and arced stamps. That's kind of what kept me from bidding.

[carrmillus]

.....o.k., t.j., the mystery deepens!!!....i've got 7 early 3 liners-6 of of them have the 3rd line-"new york"-one of these is the oldest camillus i've got, a tuxedo knife with ebony handles that has curved 3 line stamp on both blades(1902-goin's)-the one that's different is a senator pattern(4 blade)-the main blade is 3 line with the last line-camillus, n.y.-the other 3 blades are the curved 3 line with "new york" being the 3rd. line.....?????..... ..... this is really getting confusing, i think i need some "jacque danyel"!!!!!...... ...........

[tjmurphy]

I'm with you, but I think mine will be a Big-K Cola Reckon why Camillus wanted to do this to us Didn't they know that people would be studying their knives and markings in December, 2012??