Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

[jon_slider]

Wow just bob
very generous of you to take the time to post all your photos, thanks!

just to focus on the long pulls in your photos, this one

has the spring pin in the Camillus position, the pivot pin for the blade is not in the correct position for an original russel, it is too far forward of the arrow head on the bolster, and the tang stamp arrow starts under the U, which is wrong, it should start under the S in an original.

There are also German tang stamps that do start the arrow under the S, but this is not one of them. In any case, its a nice long pull knife, just not a pre 1941 Russell, imho.

These long pulls are also very interesting

the spear point one has a tang stamp with no arrow, instead a pair of diamonds on either side of the R. I have not seen that tang stamp on any genuine curved tang stamp Russells. I do see a match to that tag stamp on this 1998 commemorative set:


The long match strike Jack with the straight tang stamp is interesting too, do you consider it to be genuine? The tang stamp on the match strike does not match the catalog photo Miller Bros posted, which shows a Green River stamp, like this one you posted earlier, which I have no doubt is genuine


In any case, so far I have yet to see a long pull, non match strike, genuine pre 1941 Russell, neither with curved tang stamp, nor with straight line stamp. Either the spring pin is not in the center, or the tang stamp is unusual, or the blade pin is in the wrong spot in relation to the bolster arrow…

Thanks for the great photos!

[jon_slider]

Here are a few more Russells off the Bay. None of these following knives are what I would call Genuine.

First a long pull Clip blade that has the spring pin correctly in the middle, and the pin is steel, not spun brass, which is correct. The only thing unusual is the tang stamp, it has an R with Diamonds on the sides, not an arrow through it, plus it is stamped Green River. The tang stamp is neither a straight Russell stamp from pre 1933, nor is it the typical curved stamp of the 1933-1941 era. And the blade is a long pull, which so far has not been demonstrated to exist on any Russel with the steel pin in the center of the handle, and a correct tang stamp and bolster.




Next is a Russell with the spring pin not in center, and the pin is spun brass




Below is a Russell with not only the middle spring pin not in center of the handle, the pin at the bare head end of the handle is not in the middle. This is the first Russel I have seen with this pin configuration. The arrow head is non standard on the bolster, because it is a complete triangle, instead of just 2 lines.

[jon_slider]

There is a new listing on the bay for this Russell Clip Long Pull

Look at the diamonds on either side of the R on the tang stamp. Those Diamonds are also on the Colonial made Russells from 1998, not on the original 1933-41 Russells.





Next below is a 1998 Russell Barlow Limited Edition 2 knife display set made by Colonial. There was a small single blade and a grand daddy single blade barlow in each set, choice of dyed bone or stag.
Note the Diamonds on the tang stamp.





And next below, Here is a 1934-1941 Russell tang stamp, confirmed genuine by the factory



Next is the tang stamp of the Russell Commemorative with Delrin handle scales made by Schrade in 1974.




Here by the way is Schrades Grand-Dads Barlow (1973-2004), which as you can see is basically identical to their 1875-1975 Russell Commemorative. They share the same blades, same delrin scales, same handle pin positions. It appears only the blade etch, tang stamp, and bolster were changed.



next here is some info google turned up on a search re German Russells:

---
The German Barlows are correct as to the feather stamping (3) on the bolsters. According to Lavona Ferguson, Romance of Collecting Cattaraugus Robeson Russell Queen Knives, six patterns were introduced in 1971. They had country of origin, Germany, stenciled on the tang, which could be erased with a mechanical eraser. Some times they have been aged artificially.

I think one difference is that the German ones have spun rivets and the originals have hammered rivets.

She also mentions a higher quality German Russell Barlow introduced in 1967, pattern 62, with Germany stamped on the tang.

She states that Russell Harrington notified the distributors to stop using the Russell Trademark.
---

Here is a photo of a German Russell tang stamp, I dont know what year.



In the next photo, note the pin on the barehead end is closer to the spine of the blade. And the center pin is not in the middle of the handle.



The above knife also has a non original bolster, it lacks the base ring.

Here is another German Russell, box marked Green River Works. Obviously not original Russell. The tang stamp is wrong, the pile side of the blade is stamped Solingen Germany, the bolster has no ring, and the R with arrow is wrong, too many feathers, and the handle pins are in the wrong position, middle pin is not centered, and the handle material is wrong, not bone, possibly delrin imitation stag.





I would also be interested in seeing any other photos of German Russells, including tang stamps, if anyone has some. Thanks!

btw here is a reference photo for a pre 1933 long pull spear bladed Russell (non barlow). Note the straight tang stamp, not curved. It is currently in the AAPK store.

[jon_slider]

A bit more info about these 1998 sets


from
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... here/page2
---
Here's some info on the 1998 versions made by Colonial based on info from my source at Dexter-Russell.

The blades are 440A.

As Colonial was in financial difficulty when they produced the barlows, the blades were stamped by Dexter-Russell using their own steel from AK Steel in Coshocton ,Ohio. They (Dexter-Russell) also supplied the steel for and stamped the springs.
---

[Mossdancer]

As I do not collect Russell folder here are some photo's that may be of interest.
moss

[jon_slider]

thanks for the interesting book exerpts

a couple of highlights from the reading

Tom Sawyer was published in 1875. The first Russell Barlow was made a year later, in 1876, so Mark Twains reference to a Barlow is not about a Russell. Huckleberry Finn was published in 1884, where a barlow is mentioned again, that one could be a Russell.

The fourth photo references Russell Stainless, which I imagine is in reference to the 1998 set built by Colonial using 440A steel from Dexter-Russell

The second to last photo, has a knife in the top right corner that does not have the spring pin in the center of the handle. It appears to have Camillus style pin positions. It is not a catalog picture, but presumably a knife the book authors mistakenly took to be genuine.

There is a lot of misinformation on Russell Barlows online, there is even a repeated account, quoted at some Cutlery vendor sites, that the first Russell Barlow was made in 1785, about 101 years too early.

I continue to consider the position of the middle pin in the center of the handle, an important trait of a genuine Russell Barlow.

Not only do many supposed Russell Barlows not have the middle pin in the center, there are also some Russells that have the pin at the bare end closer to the spine, like this Boker configuration:


that looks a little like the pin pattern in this knife, which I do not consider genuine, based on the position of the middle pin not in center, and the barehead end pin, closer to the spine, not centered.


here again is one more non genuine Russell, look how the pins are not centered at the bare end, nor in the middle of the handle. I dont know who made it, but it is stamped Germany on the pen tang. I would guess its Boker made


here is a bit more Russell info from another site

[QUOTE=ptradeco;12572270]This from one of our more distinguished knife historians, John E. Goins, 1972.




[/QUOTE]


Im pretty sure now, that Russell did not make a long pull blade with a curved stamp.. quoted from the above text:
---
The second of the German made Russells was produced in 1971, and is supposed to be an exact copy of the original. Fortunately it is not. There are several ways to tell this model from the original and after studying the differences even a beginner should be able to tell the difference. The appearance of this knife suggests Eye brand probably made this knife also.

This (German) knife is marked with an ink stamp across the blade, and Russell (curved) R and arrow on the tangs. This knife was produced in both one and two blade knives, with spear and clip master blades. The clip blade has a long pull and can be recognized as German by this, as the original Russell clip blade has the same pull as the spear blade.
---

Here is an example of a German Russell with long pull spear


on this page
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... &start=105 is a picture of a long pull Russell. Notice the middle pin is not in the center of the handle, but rather in the position that Camillus uses. I suspect Russell subcontracted to Camillus during the Roaring 20s, pure conjecture on the timeframe. I was told by Dexter-Russell that Russell did sub to Camillus, I just don't know the date accurately.





here is a Camillus made Tip Top with a possibly similar long pull clip blade, notice the spring pin closer to the bolster



one more Tip Top, more clearly showing what Im calling the Camillus pin position



disclaimer, everything I post is my opinion, I am in no way an expert. This information is intended to invite discussion and increase my education. I hope it is accurate, and helps others. I do try to back up my opinions with some form of corroboration, in the form of a reference link and photo. Please add any information that can help me learn more.

[jon_slider]

russel history
some interesting reading links
http://industrialhistory.org/histories/ ... l-cutlery/
http://www.barlowgenealogy.com/Edson/barlowknife.html
http://www.collectorbooks.com/pdf/items/7035.pdf
http://www.iknifecollector.com/profiles ... fool-s-day
Most of you know that Russell -Harrington repaied barlow's for members of their Barlow Bearcats Club that was initially formed by a reporter for the Louisville Courier-Journal Newspaper.  Any blade that Russell replaced on these knives was marked with the etching SECOND. 
The Tang of the Russell, laid out as:
           RUSSELL in a half-circle over
               <>R<>  over
                U.S.A.


Historical context of the Russell Barlow knife:

1797 John Russell born in Greenfield
1873 John Russell Cutlery Company formed, headed by Richard N. Oakman, Jr.
1874 John Russell dies in Greenfield
1876 Russell Barlow prototype introduced, using the straight line tang stamp RUSSELL
1890 W. P. Dustin becomes head of Russell Cutlery Co.
1914 to 1918 ww 1
1920 Prohibition
1920 Womens right to vote
1929 begin great depression
1933 End of Prohibition
1933 Russell merges with Harrington, begins using the Curved Russell tang stamp with Arrow thru the R
1941 End great depression, Pearl Harbor, US enters World War 2
1941 Russell Harrington stops making the Russell Barlow.
1945 US drops atomic bombs on Japan, end of World War 2
1950s Russell Harrington repairs barlows for members of the Barlow Bearcats, using a tang stamp with diamonds on each side of the R, instead of an arrow
1968 Colonial builds a Commemorative Russel Barlow set for Dexter-Russel, tang stamp had diamonds on both sides of the R
1971 German replica Russells appear, curved tang stamp has arrow through the R, some have long pull blades
1974 Schrade issues a Russell commemorative with Delrin scales, same knife as the scrolled bolster Schrade 206

[jon_slider]

I just went through all 20 pages of this Barlow thread and pulled any Russell photos, including some of the long pulls 2 posts up.
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... =35&t=2822

And also this 18 page thread of more Barlows than you can shake a stick at
http://allaboutpocketknives.com/knife_f ... =2&t=11913

Here is a Boker and a German Russell with smooth no ring bolster.



I would say Boker made the smooth bolster Russell Barlows that have the Bolster arrow with more than 3 feathers.



A little more about possible sources of Long Pull blades on Russells that dont have the centered middle pin. The long pull ending up against the tang, on this Schrade, is the closest resemblance Ive found, to the ones on the Russells with long pulls.



look how the long pull runs right into the tang on this Russell with uncentered middle pin

[Dragunski]

I'm still waiting for you to find a picture of a Sheffield Joseph Barlow, showing the original one-bolster, barehead design, without the handle shape that we now know and love. I've only ever seen a catalog, hand drawn image.

[Dragunski]

...or is it Samuel Barlow...I forget.

[jon_slider]

This is the oldest extant Barlow I know of, but it predates the Russell that this thread is about

Here's a great Barlow thread describing the following Sheffield Barlow
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... 53#p138753

[jon_slider]

Here are a couple new listings on ebay by sportcolbs
The guy Lies!
"Vintage Russell USA Made 3-3/8" 2 Blade Composite Barlow knife NICE!"

The knife is NOT USA made, it is German, look at the middle pin on the handle, and the smooth bolster with no Russell arrow.




and this one (though not a Russell, similar lies about origin, and in this case lies about bone handle also)
"Boker Solingen Germany 493 3-3/8" 2 Blade Bone Tree Brand barlow knife"

This is NOT a Solingen made knife, or it would be marked on the tang (and the tree on the bolster would be fat), and the handles are Delrin, not bone.



I post here to warn people about this vendor because Ebay does not allow me to warn people there. Buyer beware.

[Dragunski]

I hate to say it, but I think I sold him that Boker.

He bought a lot of 4 of them for $30 plus shipping.

[0078]

After reading this thread I seen this one on ebay, I would have to say its a camillus or a fake. Would this be a good assumption?

[jon_slider]

After reading this thread I seen this one on ebay, I would have to say its a camillus or a fake. Would this be a good assumption?

Correct, it is not an original. The middle pin is not in the center, the tang stamp arrow through the R starts under the U instead of under the S, AND the pin at the bare head end is closer to the spine, not centered. The knife is more likely Boker than Camillus, because the barehead pin is centered on Camillus handles.

the only knives Ive found with the barehead end pin off center like that is in some Bokers like these, quoted from further up on this page:

"I continue to consider the position of the middle pin in the center of the handle, an important trait of a genuine Russell Barlow.

Not only do many supposed Russell Barlows not have the middle pin in the center, there are also some Russells that have the pin at the bare end closer to the spine, like this Boker configuration:


that looks a little like the pin pattern in this knife, which I do not consider genuine, based on the position of the middle pin not in center, and the barehead end pin, closer to the spine, not centered. This knife is essentially a twin to the one you posted


here again is one more non genuine Russell, look how the pins are not centered at the bare end, nor in the middle of the handle. I dont know who made it, but it is stamped Germany on the pen tang. I would guess its Boker made

[jon_slider]

Until know, this thread has focused on Small Russell Barlows, but recently some interesting Daddy barrows showed up.. So Im just bringing some of the pictures here, in case anyone is interested.

Lockback Fish knife

seems to have a straight Russell tang stamp that was in use pre 1933

here is another one with the same straight Russell tang stamp
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... hp/1101928



the one in this thread has the curved Russell tang stamp, in use from 1933-1941:
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... =2&t=15800


All three appear to be genuine lockback daddy barlows, and none of them have the fish scaler pattern on the spine

I hope someone with more experience, and possibly catalog pics, can help us fine tune what years those non Fish Scaler Lockbacks were offered.

see here for a pristine Fishscaler Lockback Stag Russell Daddy Barlow belonging to Tony Bose
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/458681
[QUOTE=KnifeHead;4416545]It is 5" long, N/S bolsters, brass liners, amazing thick stag.









[/QUOTE]

Tony's knife has a tang stamp that worries me, it has Diamonds on the tang stamp:


whereas the Fish knife just above his, has the tang stamp I consider genuine pre 1941:


I have only seen diamonds on the 1968 commemorative


I hope someone will add to our knowledge about the use of diamonds on a Russel tang

one more fish knife

[jon_slider]

a bit more about tang stamps and blade pin location on Small Russell Barlows

I want to draw attention to the location of the blade pivot pin near the bolster arrow head. And also notice the tang stamp arrow starts under the S
here is a Genuine one:



Below is a Not original Russell, the one posted above by 0078
note the blade pivot is not near the arrow head on the bolster, and the tang arrow starts under the U



Another difference to focus on, is the genuine curved stamp has a more open arc, such that the tang stamp R and the U of U.S.A are farther apart that on the german stamp. The german stamp has a tighter arc, bringing the R and the U close together

[stockman]

Jon a couple. A 3 3/8" straight line stamp. The other a Daddy E-Z opener
curved stamp/ diamonds on each side R/ U.S.A. The Daddy came to me
with the pins all rusted out, knife falling apart. I had it pinned. The
pictures should enlarge, hope you will be able to see stamps. I have
followed this thread will re-read it and try to learn. If you would like
you can tell me what I have.

Thanks
Harold

[jon_slider]

Jon a couple. A 3 3/8" straight line stamp. The other a Daddy E-Z opener
curved stamp/ diamonds on each side R/ U.S.A. The Daddy came to me
with the pins all rusted out, knife falling apart. I had it pinned.

Thanks for sharing your photos Harold. Im no expert, ask Bernard Levine for a pro opinion also..

To me, the small barlow looks like it has an unusual blade, the nail nick is very close to the tip, and to the spine, and the blade is very full, not worn, for such an old knife. My guess is its a genuine pre 1933 handle, possible blade change, but not sure, the straight stamp looks right..

here are a couple more small Barlow, straight stamp, see what you think of the nail nick position, similar to yours, or different?



I know very very little about Daddy Russells, I would have said yours is genuine, but would ask for corroboration that the diamonds on the tang are pre WW2. I heard that during the 50's, when Russell-Harrington did repairs that involved reblading, that the tangs were marked with diamonds. Your blade pivot pin shows it has been changed, but since you said you had the scales repinned, Im guessing the pivot was pulled for that operation, so I have no way to support any hunch your blade was marked with diamonds in the 50's.

Since both your and Tony's Daddy's have Diamonds, we need to get confirmation if those marks were original to pre WW2. I have posted asking that question in Bernards forum, you may want to check or post there also.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... hp/1101928
I dont know if he will reply. You can also contact him privately for his evaluation.

[stockman]

Jon I know the blade was re-pinned on the daddy Barlow and the handles also, all
else was as found. The small one I would guess has had a blade welded on to the
original tang. It looks odd. This would be the reason.

Harold

[jon_slider]

Here are some Long Pull Russell Small Barlows that I do not believe are original. Notice how similar the pull is to the Schrades.

What do you think, is it possible Schrade made some contract Russell Barlows with Long Pulls? Notice also the position of the middle pin on the handle, some are not centered the way Russell and Schrade do, they might be Camillus made, if he pin is off center.. thoughts invited.

























A quick note on my use of other people photos. I often collect pictures from the internet to illustrate a point. I dont mean to offend anyone whose photo I use without attribution. If it bothers you, please let me know and I will delete it, or, please do take credit if you see an image of yours you want recognition for. Thanks for posting photos on the net for all of us to use and learn from.

[MountainMan]

Ok, because of this thread, I went out on a limb and went to eBay and purchased what I think is a Schrade 206 Barlow. I have $25.00 into it and should be receiving it this week. What do you guys think?

SchradeBarlow1.jpg (48.58 KiB) Viewed 9025 times

Schradebarlow2.jpg (47.12 KiB) Viewed 9025 times

[jon_slider]

what I think is a Schrade 206 Barlow. ... What do you guys think?

you got a good deal, it is definitely a 206, that was also used for the Russell Replica
but, no fair blaming me for enabling your knife purchases LOL!

[jon_slider]

Here is a knife stamped Boker Solingen Germany with a Russell Green River Works blade etch and a Bolster with an R with an Arrow through it. I believe it is one of the unauthorized reproductions from 1971.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zhMo ... 524_57.JPG

[Dragunski]

Here's a Kentucky special. See how many things you can spot. The bolster might be real, maybe.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Russell ... 27dbc4d27a