Dye for bone handles

[TomH]

I bought some cow bone from a pet food store to try my hand at making knife handles. I survived the smell from sawing and sanding, but I haven't found a dye that works very well. My woodworking stains produced a pale pink, but that's not exactly what I was looking for. Do any of you have any good suggestions? Thanks

[Darksev]

I remember seeing a few threads on here that mention Rit Dye, and I've seen Rit at my various drugstores, usually near the shoe polish. Hukk would be the guy to answer though, He's a champ with this kind of question

[muskrat man]

I've heard leather dye works best

[Hukk]

Leather dye works great and somewhere on another site is a thread about using Rit dye on cow bone - the shin bones are preferable as they are strongest.

I used wood dye in the past with bone but it was water based and I used a strong vacuum pump to pull the dye in. It was OK with bone or wood!

I now have some aniline dye that use Denatured Alcohol and should be much thinner than water and be easier to pull in and color the bone.

You should be able to use chewing tobacco and even coffee and tea to color bone.

Here are 2 pictures of what I used originally to color wood. Inside this 2.5 Gallon sealed container I could put 5 quart mason jars in it, each jar having a different color. The red device uses a compressor at 140 PSI to create a venturi action that would pull a high vacuum. At Harbor Freight they run about $20.00. Because it was water based I could heat all the materials to 210 degrees or so. I even put a 1 inch thick aluminum plate on the bottom and heated it to 300 degrees.

I put everything in the tank - HOT, then sealed it and pulled a vacuum. The vacuum grew stronger - just like grandma's canning jars.

With the Denatured Alcohol I can't use heat, so Denatured Alcohol being thinner than water I hope just a vacuum will be sufficient.

Aniline dyes are not UV resistant so some other clear top coat will be needed, especially if it is in light a lot. We'll see!

Oh, I pulled the pins on both gauges and put them back together so I can use vacuum or pressure without having to worry about bending the needle. Bend the vacuum needle when using pressure and bend the pressure needle when using vacuum.

[Matt Hammon]

When you use the leather dye, do you use the vacuum process or simply work it into the bone with a rag? Rub it on--let it set wipe off excess? Thanks in advance...Matt

[Ringmaster]

Well....here's my (limited) experience.

Dyeing bone has, far and away, been the most frustrating part of amateur knifemaking for me. I've never tried the vacuum procedure, but it makes sense to me. However, there has to be another way, to my thinking. The old cutlers, and bone suppliers couldn't have used the vacuum process for mass production, yet somehow they achieved full penetration. Looking at the old knives, that are pocket-worn, and almost smooth - they still have color.

The most success I've had, was with potassium permanganate. It's a powder, and I mix it with water, then put the bone into it, and place it in a double boiler for roughly 30 minutes. The only color is black, tho'. Looks like the bone on old German Eye knives.

Leather dye is good for darkening the grooves in stag, deer antler, elk, etc. But, it doesn't penetrate hardly at all, beyond the surface. I've tried Rit, both boiled and cold, with zero success - a one week soak can be removed easily with white rouge on a buffer, and will certainly disappear with jigging and hafting. Ground walnut hulls will stain anything, but it won't pentrate bone, using either water or alcohol. Coffee and tea can practically be washed off. Gentian violet will stain your skin for weeks, but just sits on top, with bone.

I'd love to find out how Rogers and Schrade colored their bone, and the old Robeson strawberry color is beautiful - but I can't figure it out. If anyone finds the process, I sure hope they'll share.

Frustrated,
JR

[Hukk]

Well....here's my (limited) experience.
I'd love to find out how Rogers and Schrade colored their bone, and the old Robeson strawberry color is beautiful - but I can't figure it out. If anyone finds the process, I sure hope they'll share.

Frustrated,
JR

Well JR, that's what I'm going to be trying to duplicate using the aniline dyes and a clear coat for UV protection.
For some colors a simple soaking will do. If they had canning jars then they could create a vacuum, but you are right - it would not be useful for mass production. One of many projects.

Potassium permanganate works well but again you have just one color and a couple variants.

Here is a picture of my new vacuum pump I got for $20.00 at a garage sale. They go for around $80 at Harbor Freight and twice that at other places that have the same looking pump. It's still set up for R-12, R-22, and R-134A refrigerants which I will change. I do not think it was ever used.

Good Luck!

[orvet]

Here is the link to an old thread on dying bone.
I think the pics were lost in a server change some time back.

http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... =37&t=3599

Dale

[muskrat man]

When you use the leather dye, do you use the vacuum process or simply work it into the bone with a rag? Rub it on--let it set wipe off excess? Thanks in advance...Matt

the guy I know who uses it just rubs it in and lets it dry, will have to try it one of these days. of course this is after the handle has been hafted and jigged.

[Hukk]

I have not used the pump yet but I have used a venturi type device to pull a vacuum in the in the 2.5 Gallon sealed container. I have dyed bone both ways. The vacuum is to get some colors, blue and other leather dyes don't have the color I like.

I would not mind finding a old Case redbone and greenbone colors along with a jigged goldenrod.

[Ringmaster]

Hi Guys,

I just got this information/suggestion from the ex's boyfriend. This guy is like the one you cheated off of, in chemistry class.

Neway, he sez that you can mix a dye, with dimethyl sulfoxide ( DMSO, for short ), and the DMSO will penetrate the bone, and carry the dye with it. Just place the bone in the mixture, and let it soak. He said you should be able to get DMSO at any decent drugstore.

I haven't tried this yet, so I can't endorse it - I just thought I'd throw it out here, and see if anyone has tried this process yet, and what their results were. I checked a couple of places on the Internet, and the stuff costs more than Crown Royal, but it's still not prohibitively expensive. About $13 a pint. When I asked him what particular type of dye, he looked at me like I was some sorta 6th-grade dropout, so I just let the subject drop. I assume any dye would do, but I'll try leather dye first, and a powdered dye after that.

One other thing I found on Wikipediea, the normal solution is diluted 4:1 with distilled water - so full-strength might penetrate faster. I'll start with that. Oh, it freezes at 65 F., so you gotta keep it warm.

Has anybody tried this stuff ? If not, I'm gonna try it, and I'll report on how it works.

Later,
JR

PS - wear gloves when working with the stuff - it's absorbed by the skin, and tastes like garlic, or bad eggs.

[Hukk]

I have used DMSO for a back injury - Amazing stuff. That was in the early 80's I used it straight - no mixing with distilled water. It does taste like you have garlic in your mouth. I got an incredible itch on the area where it was applied. It worked well enough so that I was able to quit taking pain medications - even after I stopped using DMSO!

There was talk about using DMSO mixed with pain medications to deliver the pain medications to a specific site rather than making your body toxic by using oral medications. DMSO is used to treat one ailment but I don't remember what that was.

DMSO is a by product of making paper and I used to buy mine from a feed store where it was sold as a horse liniment. So the medical fraternity has used it for pain relief and it WORK's - at least for me. I kinda felt like my back was fixed and my life was vastly improved. I finally did have back surgery in 1991 and used DMSO during recovery. I was back to work in 5 weeks and was working 12 hour days a week later.

It makes perfect sense to me that DMSO can penetrate bone - it does penetrate muscle tissue quite well.

I may have to give it a try - Thanks JR.

[Ringmaster]

Well, dadgumit !

Hickville, USA (where I live) has DMSO in 99% concentration...but there's not a bottle of leather dye inside the city limits. I finally gave up shopping, and decided to use some potassium permanganate (powder). The durn stuff won't dissolve in DMSO...well, just barely. It's been soaking for 2 days now, and zero results - even on the surface.

I haven't given up, but I'm pretty disappointed. Tomorrow, I'll try dissolving the p.p. in H2O ( I know that works), and adding it to the DMSO. It'll dilute it, to probably 2:1 ratio, but supposedly that's still stronger than what's needed.

Now I know how Enrico Fermi must've felt,
JR

[jaquin]

Hi,jaquin the new guy,I've been using shoe dye for years on horn and bone with verining scucess. Best is OLD ! Lincoln shoe dye,the kind they made before reformulated to "safeter" standarts. Look for old stock in out of the way shoe repair shops.

[Ringmaster]

Hi Guys,

Observations on using DMSO as a penetrant, to carry dye into bones...

Even a teeny-tiny bit of DMSO on the skin will absolutely, totally ruin the taste of good beer in your mouth.
A solution of DMSO and leather dye will stain formica, instantly, and ( I guess ) permanently. Bon-Ami won't remove it, that's for sure.
DMSO and leather dye will actually stain glass, if left long enough.

After a 2-week soak, DMSO and potassium permanganate is completely hopeless.
After a 1-week soak, DMSO and dark brown leather dye will turn bone into a putrid shade of brownish-green.

Admittedly, I haven't been brave enough to apply any heat, to the solution. I just don't know how this chemical will react to heat, and I don't wanna mess up my kitchen. Perhaps if I had a Coleman stove, and could try it outdoors, the results might have been better ?

I haven't given up, but it's discouraging, so far.

Still trying,
JR

[Jim Bush]

Last summer I did some experimenting on some bone scales that I bought from someone in the Carolinas. Before I did anything at all, I boiled the bones slowly in a mixture of alum and water for a while, and then simmered them until a whitish residue appeared in the water and coated the bones. Then I removed the scales, and cleaned them and set them out to dry. What happened in the process, was that any remaining animal fat, grease or tissue was extracted from the bone, and the pores were opened up slightly.
After the scales had dryed thoroughly, I jigged several patterns into the sets of scales before any attempt to dye. My patterns were based roughly on old Cattaraugus worm groove designs, Rogers bone, and some old Case patterns. It was my first effort, but I ended up with several sets that were pretty good.
I bought some Fiebings professional oil dye in several different colors, and mixed them so that I got different shades of brown, greenish brown, and reddish brown. Then I put each set of scales in a water glass and covered them with dye. I set the glasses outside in the sun during the hottest part of the summer, and left them there for over a week. They heated and cooled each day, but by the time I finally brought them in and dried them out, the dye had penetrated sufficiently that they were able to be used on real live knives. One of my favorites is this King of the Woods that was rehandled with my scales. Jim

[jonet143]

thanks for the tips!

[muskrat man]

wow Jim, you did a real nice job on that old KOTW. I've been trying to duplicate the old round jig peechseed bone and the old rogers type bone you see on the WWII era knives for a while now with no luck.

[Hukk]

Looks Great - you did a very nice job on that! Thanks for the tips!

[coffeecup]

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but the comments about problems securing dye penetration made me think a bit. Mr. Bush seems to have been the only one who mentioned cleaning up the bone, which leads me to believe there may be some problems with residual grease.

What made me think of this was recently prepping some bones for a comparative study collection. Bones--especially shin bones--have grease in them from marrow, or grease that has soaked in from the decomp of the animal. For the dye to penetrate, you've got to get rid of this grease.

If the bone is relatively fresh, with bits of tissue, cartilage, etc, you can use the boil route to clean them up. If the bone is closed (like an intact shin bone, etc), either cut the ends off or drill holes into the ends. This will let the boiling solution penetrate the bone more quickly. Boil for a couple hours in about 2-3 gallons of water and a heaping tablespoon of dishwasher detergent that contains lye. After boiling, rinse and let dry before dying, jigging, etc.

If the bone is dry (pet store bones, etc), soak if for a few days in a 50/50 mix of household ammonia and water. I usually put it in a sealed bucket in my shop, and just kick the bucket occasionally to agitate the solution. After a couple days, rinse and dry the bone.

This isn't a panacea, but it will help get better penetration of the dyestuff.

[Hukk]

Yes, the bone must be cleaned. Another good cleaner is TSP - TRISODIUM PHOSPHATE that can be purchased in most states from a paint store or hardware store. In California I have to buy it out of state. They only sell a TSP replacement here that lacks the Phosphate. Hi Phosphate products were banned and even laundry detergents were reformulated. Phosphates were blamed for out of control algae growth in many waterways. Works well in boiling water. Boil it twice.

[FOG]

Would this work for ANTLER do you think ?

[orvet]

I do not think is necessary for antler.
Antler does not have the fat in it or marrow like the bone does.

I have dyed some antler by putting it in a container & dumping in a couple old cans of chew,
and putting in some water. Let is set for 6 months and it is dyed. It works for dry & cured bone slabs.

Dale

[coffeecup]

Would this work for ANTLER do you think ?

Definitely unnecessary for antler unless your antler was taken in the velvet--then you'd need to scrub and degrease, then dye because it will look pretty ratty. For most antler, this is more work than you need to do.

[FOG]

Thanks for the replies,and SORRY for the thread jack.

I was thinking of dyeing antler cause sumtimes it needs to be sanded for fit etc.