Red Goose Shoes

[bkazz5]

I got this one as part of a trade. It's a nice knife and well made but I can't find anything about this knife. I am happy with this knife regardless but is this a true Schatt & Morgan knife?

[RobesonsRme.com]

That's a great looking knife.

I don't know Schatt from Shinola, but it comes suspiciously close to failing the "Too Good To Be True" test.

Nifbuf?

Charlie Noyes

[bkazz5]

I don't believe it is an old knife. I think it is a recent knife. I hope there is a Queen/Schatt & Morgan knife expert out there that can tell me if this is a recent production or if I got took.

[mrwatch]

I can't help with the knife. In the early 1950s in grade school it was Buster Brown and Red Goose Shoes. The girls wore either brown and white oxfords or black and white with bobby socks. My shoe store had the machine that you put the toe of your shoes into and pressed a button to see your toes so mom could see they fit just right. One time the dealer gave us a metal bracelet with a blue rocket ship on it. He used a vibrating tool to etch our names on it. Wish I knew what company that was from!
This Sunday June 15th I will be 69. Bob

P. S. We all carried a pocket knife. Mine was a Cub Scout. YEAH!

[tjmurphy]

When I was a kid, the Model Shoe Store in Newport had one of those foot X-rays. Little did anyone know back then.

[jerryd6818]

We got our feet X-Rayed at Sears.

It can only be from one of two time periods. Either approximately 1902 when the company moved from Gowanda, New York to Titusville, Pennsylvania, through approximately 1928 at which time operations had practically ceased. During this time one of the stamps S&M used was, SCHATT & MORGAN, TITUSVILLE, PA.

In 1991, Queen Cutlery Co., reintroduced the brand by offering high quality collector grade knives under the old name.

As close as I can tell, by enhancing the picture, the tang stamp on this knife reads:
SCHATTXMORGAN
CUTLERY CO.
TITUSVILLE, PA

[tjmurphy]

Though I'm far from an expert at anything, I think the knife is OK, but may have been rehandled. Here's one that's on ebay now.

EDIT: Looking again, I guess the stamps are different.

[jerryd6818]

T.J. I noticed a couple of things about the knife you posted.

One - the pull on the main does not go into the tang like the one bkazz5 has.

Two - the tang stamp has the '&' sign between Schatt & Morgan. The bkazz5 knife has an 'X'.

[tjmurphy]

Well, I told you I wasn't an expert, but it seems the blade kicks are consistent between the two knives as are the swedges on both sides. And, how in the world were you able to read that stamp? Had it not been referenced as a S&M I would not have know what that stamp said. I know what it is, but still can't read it completely, especially the &/X.

[bkazz5]

Thanks to everyone for your feedback. I will get a better pic of the stamp and post it. I would like to believe it is an old knife but think Jerry may be on to something with the 1991 Queen release. Or, maybe it is just a complete fake although I can't tell that it has been apart. However, I too was suspect of the nail nick going into the tang. Looking forward to further discussion. Thanks.

[jerryd6818]

how in the world were you able to read that stamp?

Ya blow it up real big, darken it up some, sit on your left cheek and hold your mouth just right, say the Lords Prayer backwards and hope...

I'm not making any judgments on this one or the one T.J. posted. I'm simply providing information and y'all can come to your own conclusions.

[bkazz5]

Here's a few only slightly better pics of the stamps of the primary and secondary blades. the stamp reads:

Schatt & Morgan
Cutlery Co.
Titusville, PA.

Maybe this helps to determine - Is it an old knife, is it a recent reproduction from the queen factory, or is it completely made up knife?

[jerryd6818]

bkazz5 - I owe you an apology. I misread the tang stamp on your knife. With the new pictures, I see now it is Schatt&Morgan and not SchattXMorgan. In my defense, even enhanced, it is very difficult to read and I didn't have the sharp eye of Dimitri (Miller Bros) around to bail me out.

I remembered I have a pre-1928 Farmers Jack (with a tang stamp even more difficult to read) so I snapped a couple of shots of the tang stamp and present one (of the shots) here for comparison.

Comparison of bkazz5's S&M to a known pre-1928 S&M (They're larger so click twice)

A couple of post 1991 S&M tang stamps

I think we may be going about this all wrong gentlemen. Instead of concentrating on the knife's tang stamp, maybe we should concentrate on the shoes. Unless it's a counterfeit, I think this is an old knife. So reading below, 1906-1928???

"The Red Goose Shoe Company of St. Louis, Missouri, began selling shoes to pioneer families headed west in 1869. The company's name was originally Gieseke-D'Oench-Hayes, after its founders, but when the company became advertising conscious in the early 1900s, they changed the name. Gieseke is German slang for "goose" so the goose image came naturally. The red color came later when, during the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904, some stock boys painted the goose on the cartons red. The head of the company liked the idea, and so Red Goose Shoes was trademarked in 1906.

In 1911, the Roberts, Johnson & Rand Shoe Company merged with the Peters Shoe Company to form the International Shoe Company in St. Louis. Red Goose was swallowed up by the International Shoe in the first half of the 20th Century. International Shoe dropped Red Goose. And, by 1953, International Shoe Company changed its name to Interco and bought Florsheim Shoes.

In 1980, Interco diversified into home furnishings by the purchase of Ethan Allen.

In 1984, Interco began a rationalization of its portfolio, shedding most retail and footwear businesses. And a decade later, Interco sold off the remaining footware businesses.

Then in 1996, Interco changed its name to Furniture Brands International to reflect its new focus on furniture.

[bkazz5]

Jerry - Thanks and no apology necessary. I appreciate your input. You have been most helpful. My conclusion is that it is not a pre 1928 stamp. The fonts are different and overall the knife just does not look like an 80+ year old knife. The question that remains unanswered is - did Queen/Schatt & Morgan release a knife in the 2000's with a red goose shoes shield or is this knife just completely a fake?

[tjmurphy]

I still think that it is an older knife that's been rehandled. That crisp, shiney, glassy looking bone is new. The blades appear to be identicle, the general cut of the blade, the kicks and the swedge. The only difference I can see is the pull going into the tang. Three outa four ain't bad.

[jerryd6818]

I tend to agree with T.J. A rehandle is a strong possibility, what with the fresh bone and the nickel sliver pins instead of brass. BUT, this pre-'28 Farmer's Jack has nickel silver pins instead of brass. All this speculatin' is startin' to hurt my haid.

[tjmurphy]

Time for a nap, Jerry

[Paladin]

Anybody ever see Red Goose advertised on a Schatt?

Ray

[jerryd6818]

That's a good question Ray. Or maybe an even better question is, "Has anyone ever seen an S&M advertising knife of any kind"? Those are good questions for (the other) Ray (knife7knut) or Dimitri (Miller Bro's).

[RobesonsRme.com]

I did some rather exhaustive Google Image searches for "Schatt & Morgan Knife", Schatt & Morgan Red Goose", "Red Goose Knife", etc.

I looked at hundreds, if not thousands of internet images during those searches.

As far as I know, the OP knife is the only one like it posted on the net.

That tells me that almost for sure, Queen has not released such a knife in recent times.

The discussion re' vintage authenticity continues, but I'm falling back on my initial response,
"If it looks too good to be true, it probably is".

Charlie Noyes

[bkazz5]

Since my knowledge is so little and others so great, typically my posts to this thread are answered in pretty short order and do not generate much conversation. I must say I am enjoying that I have posted a knife that has generated a bit of interest.

I visited the Queen website and learned of David Clark who is identified as Queen's historian. I have e-mailed Mr. Clark, provided pictures and have asked if he could shed any light on the authenticity of the knife. I will post his response assuming I get one. Thanks - Bryan

[jerryd6818]

By golly, by gum. That's the way to "git 'er done". Great idea Bryan. I'm looking forward to any answer you may get.


And Charlie, that philosophy is an excellent one to stand by. That and "It's all about the money".

[RobesonsRme.com]

I had sent David a PM re' this thread a few days ago. He has not received your E-mail, as yet.

He called me today. He's in Arkansas at a military unit reunion.

He told me he will post to the thread when he can, but his initial thoughts are the knife is likely authentic and dates to the 1920's.

He's never seen one with the Red Goose shield before, but Schatt & Morgan made many advertising jacks with different shields and/or blade etches.

I'll be pleased to be shown to have been incorrect in my assessment of your knife.

I hope it's old and genuine.

If anybody will know, it's going to be David.

Charlie Noyes

[bkazz5]

I received the following response from Mr. Clark and with his permission am sharing his response and pictures with everyone. I think the Red Goose knife has a strong resemblance to the Elevator knife in the middle. The bone, the swedge, and the long pull going down into the tang are very similar.

I am happy to have been at the right place at the right time to pick this knife up. And, thanks to Mr. Clark for his input.

From Mr. David Clark:

"In my opinion, you have a vintage authentic Schatt and Morgan jack. This is base on some jacks I have in my collection. I have attached two pictures, one of three S&M jacks with advertising shields and the other of three Dollar Knife Corp. Atlanta jacks, one with an advertising shield. You have a beautiful knife."

David Clark

[RobesonsRme.com]

I think that's great. David knows Schatt & Morgan like almost no one else.

BTW, David Clark is an active AAPK member using the name "NifBuf".

If ever you need his assistance again, just PM him. I don't think he checks his Queen mailbox daily.

Charlie