Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

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jon_slider
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by jon_slider »

Here are some Long Pull Russell Small Barlows that I do not believe are original. Notice how similar the pull is to the Schrades.

What do you think, is it possible Schrade made some contract Russell Barlows with Long Pulls? Notice also the position of the middle pin on the handle, some are not centered the way Russell and Schrade do, they might be Camillus made, if he pin is off center.. thoughts invited.

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A quick note on my use of other people photos. I often collect pictures from the internet to illustrate a point. I dont mean to offend anyone whose photo I use without attribution. If it bothers you, please let me know and I will delete it, or, please do take credit if you see an image of yours you want recognition for. Thanks for posting photos on the net for all of us to use and learn from.
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MountainMan
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by MountainMan »

Ok, because of this thread, I went out on a limb and went to eBay and purchased what I think is a Schrade 206 Barlow. I have $25.00 into it and should be receiving it this week. What do you guys think?
SchradeBarlow1.jpg
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jon_slider
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by jon_slider »

MountainMan wrote:what I think is a Schrade 206 Barlow. ... What do you guys think?
you got a good deal, it is definitely a 206, that was also used for the Russell Replica
but, no fair blaming me for enabling your knife purchases LOL!
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jon_slider
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by jon_slider »

Here is a knife stamped Boker Solingen Germany with a Russell Green River Works blade etch and a Bolster with an R with an Arrow through it. I believe it is one of the unauthorized reproductions from 1971.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zhMo ... 524_57.JPG
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Dragunski
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by Dragunski »

Here's a Kentucky special. See how many things you can spot. The bolster might be real, maybe.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Russell ... 27dbc4d27a
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jon_slider
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by jon_slider »

jon_slider wrote:Here is a knife stamped Boker Solingen Germany with a Russell Green River Works blade etch and a Bolster with an R with an Arrow through it. I believe it is one of the unauthorized reproductions from 1971.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zhMo ... 524_57.JPG
hmmm, the above link is wrong image, cant find the one Im looking for at the moment, but this one will illustrate a boker barlow, bottom knife, and a Boker made Russel, top knife

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae22 ... f5a22d.jpg
Dragunski wrote:Here's a Kentucky special. See how many things you can spot. The bolster might be real, maybe.
Thanks for the challenge quiz :-)

The diamonds on the tang stamp look like the blade came from one of the 1998 authorized commemorative sets made by colonial shown on page 3 of this same thread.
here is the picture of the set
http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae22 ... 1b7eaf.jpg

my guess is, the knife dragunski posted is a genuine 1933-1941 russell handle with a blade swap to a 1998 replica. The replica bolster arrow head goes closer to the pivot end of the knife. The bolster pictured by dragunski is a correct genuine Russel bolster, imo. I would say the handle is also genuine from that period.
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peanut740
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by peanut740 »

The seller would be enough of problem for me.
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wlf
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by wlf »

Jon ,you're oozing information!!
I buy roosters combs and farmers..........................................................jack knives [/b]

GEC SFOs and others at LICK CREEK CUTLERY- www.allaboutpocketknives.com/wlf

May the Father and Son bless
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jon_slider
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by jon_slider »

wlf wrote:Jon ,you're oozing information!!
Thanks for your kind words. I have too much time on my hands, a lot of it spent googling :-)

I love the way the net lets us use images to save me words.

Happy Holidays!
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Jacknifeben
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by Jacknifeben »

Does this 18 inch "butcher" knife have anything to do with these Russell knives and is it worth anything?
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jon_slider
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by jon_slider »

JACKNIFEBEN wrote:Does this 18 inch "butcher" knife have anything to do with these Russell knives and is it worth anything?
google:
"Dexter Russell 12" Blade Cimeter Steak Knife Straight Dark Wood Handle"

available new for $45, made by the current USA Dexter-Russell company.
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Dragunski
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by Dragunski »

jon_slider wrote:
jon_slider wrote:Here is a knife stamped Boker Solingen Germany with a Russell Green River Works blade etch and a Bolster with an R with an Arrow through it. I believe it is one of the unauthorized reproductions from 1971.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zhMo ... 524_57.JPG
hmmm, the above link is wrong image, cant find the one Im looking for at the moment, but this one will illustrate a boker barlow, bottom knife, and a Boker made Russel, top knife

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae22 ... f5a22d.jpg
Dragunski wrote:Here's a Kentucky special. See how many things you can spot. The bolster might be real, maybe.
Thanks for the challenge quiz :-)

The diamonds on the tang stamp look like the blade came from one of the 1998 authorized commemorative sets made by colonial shown on page 3 of this same thread.
here is the picture of the set
http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae22 ... 1b7eaf.jpg

my guess is, the knife dragunski posted is a genuine 1933-1941 russell handle with a blade swap to a 1998 replica. The replica bolster arrow head goes closer to the pivot end of the knife. The bolster pictured by dragunski is a correct genuine Russel bolster, imo. I would say the handle is also genuine from that period.
I am surprised that you think those black saw-cut handle slabs are original. They look very fresh to me, compared to the bolster. They don't look like they fit quite right, either. Disregarding the stamp for a moment, the blade also seems the wrong shape, a little too fat and with that curved clip on top. It also has very strange deep serrations that don't look like a "glaze" finish at all. I will take your word that it's a Colonial blade, but it seems wrong even not looking at the stamp.

Since it's hard to see the inside of the frame, the liners, etc, we can't really judge it very well. The bolster looks original, I agree, but to me, the slabs don't.
jon_slider
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by jon_slider »

Good feedback
I agree the blade is too wide and the mill marks are weird.

I also have some doubts about the slabs but the color did exist and the way they are thicker than the bolster is Russellish. It looks like the color was ground off the edges during the rebuild cleanup.

There is also a chance the blade was one of the 1950's Russell Dexter repairs.
Especially because the bolster is original pre ww2. The 1968 commemorative bolster is different. See page 3

Russell Dexter also provided the blades on the 1968 commemorative pairs. So the diamonds could be Dexter either way, but not pre ww2

Mostly I'm guessing the slabs and handle are original because that's a cheaper fix, to just replace a blade. But I'm only guessing.
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TexasJack
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

image.jpg
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I found these at an antique store and thought they may help your study.
Most are in bad condition, some have unmarked blades. I only wish I had visited sooner because I was told someone had bought the good ones a week earlier.
Let me know if you need any individual pictures.
Jack
jon_slider
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by jon_slider »

congratulations on your great haul!

I would be curious to see pictures of the Russells sorted into the following categories
1. Straight line tang stamps
2a. Curved tang stamps with the middle handle pin centered (original)
2b. Curved tang stamps with the middle handle pin closer to the bolster than center (Camillus)
3. Any Russell with a long pull blade nick

about curved tang stamps, I distinguish 3 variants
1. The arrow in the R under the curved Russell lines up with the beginning of the arrow under the first S (wide arch Russell tang stamp) (original)
2. The arrow in the R under the curved Russell lines up with the beginning of the arrow under the U (narrow arch Russell tang stamp) (not original)
3. Any tang stamp with diamonds on both sides of the R under the curved Russell tang stamp (post ww2)

about bolsters
1. Any bolster showing the pivot pin touching the side of the Arrow point on the bolster is original
2. Any bolster showing the pivot pin forward of the arrow head is not original.

The easiest way to shoot photos of these features is to open the primary blade to the half stop and photograph the mark side showing the whole knife.

group images of the handles with blades closed are also informative, grouped by those with the middle pin in center, and those with the middle pin closer to the bolster end.

If the middle pin is not centered, the knife is not original, but Camillus made a number of good ones under contract, before WW1, with the middle pin closer to the bolster.

thanks!
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TexasJack
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

This evening I will sort them.
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

image.jpg
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

image.jpg
Edit
The 3rd one is pictured again two post down.
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

image.jpg
R with diamonds on each side.
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

image.jpg
Pin placement not original Russell
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

image.jpg
Can't read tang stamp.
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

My photographic skills are lacking but let me know if you need close ups of any of these pictured.
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

image.jpg
In the knife role were 6 knives that weren't Russell Barlows.
I am going to check them out in my book.
I'm not sure what club this is but here is a photo of the Knife Roll.
Edit.
Interesting how much info you can find on this forum.
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... =2&t=10858

National Knife Collectors & Dealers Association the predecessor of the N.K.C.A.
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jon_slider
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by jon_slider »

Thanks for sharing all your Russell photos

in photo number One of the 11 knives with straight line Russells there are several knives that catch my attention.
1. blades
starting on the lower left and counting up, knife #1 has an unusual Clip point blade. Compare it to the #3 knife that has a different nail nick and the angle of the clip point is different. Note that Knife #5 has a similar nail nick and profile as #3. I suspect the #1 is the oldest, and to me, the #5 is particularly nice looking. #10 has a nice full blade, its a nice one.

2. handles
the handle on knife #2 is unusually rounded, it bothers me, but might just be something that an individual reshaped. On #8 there is a non standard pin placement, could be a repair, or an unusual batch. I like the handle shape on #8, #9, and #11, they are sort of flat slab saw cut, not rounded. But rounded is also original, #10 being a good example.

3. Blade pivots
#10 is an excellent example of where a Russell blade pivot pin is placed. Slightly to the side of the point of the arrow on the bolster. This is a good feature to look for. Replacement blades sometimes have the blade pivot further forward of the arrow head, and more centered. I will come back to this in other photos.

In photo number Two, showing 6 knives with curved line Russells
1. blades
starting left to right, #1 has a different nail nick than #2 whose nick is very deep. I would be curious to see close ups of those two tang stamps. #2 stands out as unusual.

2. handles
there are some nice looking rounded light yellow handles, #1 is nice, as well as #5. knife #3 has the middle handle pin not in the center, what I call a Camillus style handle.

3. Blade pivots
#2 pivot is very visible. Sometimes this is because it was a blade replacement, but the blade is still a Russell Harrington blade I think, because the pivot pin is in the correct location.

photo number Three, the 2 knives with blades stamped with diamonds
1. blades
#1 is possibly the fullest blade of your group of knives. I would like to see a photo of the tang stamps of #1. I believe it may be a 1950's Russell Dexter blade replacement. #2 is very unusual and may be an old blade from a Russell Jack knife, not originally a barlow, not sure.

2. handles
#1 excellent looking smooth yellow, possibly a well loved knife that was sent in for blade replacement.

3. Blade pivot pins
both #1 and #2 have visible pins, most likely from blade replacement. The tang stamp on #2 is rather unusual, it combines a straight stamp with the use of the R and USA stamps. Could be older than the curved stamp series. Curved stamps started in 1933 with the merger of Russell with Harrington.

photo number Four of 3 knives whose middle handle pins are not centered
1. Blades
#1 has an unusual 3 line tang stamp, I can't quite read it, but it does not appear to be Russell, Im curious if you can make out what it says. #2 looks like a Camillus blade to me, is the swedge only on the mark side? Please post a photo of this knife showing the blade from both sides. Long nick Russells are not original, in my opinion. I believe some are Camillus.

2. Handles
all 3 knives are good example of non Russell handles, based on the middle pin position.

3. Blade pivots
the pins on all 3 knives are further forward than on original russels. Those are good examples of a feature to look for as non original.

Photo Five of 7 knives whose tang stamps are not legible
1. Blades
#5 looks like a very full blade with a shallow nail nick, I think it is a nice one original. #6 and #7 with the long pulls I believe are not original.

2. handles
#4 bothers me, it is unusually rounded, but could have been modified by an owner. #5 and #6 have very nice handles. #7 has an extra pin in the handle, likely a repair.

3. Blade pivots
#6 pivot looks like a pin replacement with a non Russell blade. #7 pivot seems too far forward, looks like a repair with a non original blade.

One of my goals is to determine if any long pull bladed knives are non original. You have 3 long pull blades. The #2 knife in photo group 3 has a camillus style handle with the middle handle pin not in the center, so clearly not original. The #7 knife in photo group 4 is heavily modified with the blade pivot not in original position. The #6 knife shows what appears to be a blade pivot pin replacement, I don't think the blade is original.

I hope my comments are useful. Disclaimer, I am not an expert, these are just my observations, and I encourage you to get other opinions.

thanks for taking the time to share your photos, they make an excellent study tutorial of the variations in Russells from the Straight tang stamp era, 1876-1933, the curved stamp era 1933-1941, and you even have some very interesting blades with diamonds on the tang stamp that I believe are from after WW2, but I could be mistaken.

here btw is a picture of a knife dragunski linked to above, it has diamonds on the tang stamp, but the nail nick and the shape of the clip portion of the blade are different than on your yellow handled clip blade with the diamonds stamp, which is why I suggested the blade could be from a 1968 set built by Colonial, for which Russell also provided blades.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ZQAo ... E60_57.JPG

and here is a Camillus of mine,
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-R3-f ... G_7148.JPG

I think your long pull knife #2 in photo Four, pictured also here
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3YOB ... /image.jpg
with non centered middle handle pin, may have the same blade
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TexasJack
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Re: Learning to spot a real Russell Barlow

Post by TexasJack »

Quote"#5 looks like a very full blade with a shallow nail nick, I think it is a nice one original. #6 and #7 with the long pulls I believe are not original."



After looking and from a Tip from a member # 7 is a case tested stag handle.
I will try to get you good close up pictures of all of the others later.
This forum and also your study on Boker Barlows has been very informative to me.
I should be able to this weekend sometime.
Jack
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