Western: Brands and SFOs

[coffeecup]

I've got kind of an unofficial tally going of brands used by Western, and known purchasers of SFOs from Western. I thought I'd put it up here, and folks can add the ones I've forgotten to the list, or new ones as they are discovered.

Brands
(I think I'm missing some of the in-house brands here.)
Western States (the original brand)
Westaco
West-Cut
West Co/Westco (but see note below)
Western
Westmark
plus whatever brands were used after the purchase by Coleman, and later, by Camillus

SFOs
Western-made SFOs are interesting in a couple of ways.

First, Western's fixed-blade knives (including SFOs) used the patented split-tang construction from about 1930 or so til sometime after the sale to Coleman (or the later purchase by Camillus). This construction method was never licensed to another company, no company seems to have adopted it after the patent expired, and Camillus at least did not use this method of construction after purchasing Western. (I'm not sure how Coleman Western knives were made, I haven't seen enough eaxamples.) If you can see two pins in the pommel and strips of steel showing on either side of the handle, it is almost certainly a product of the Western factory. The SFOs seem to usually have included the patent number (1,967,479) in the tang stamp, or at least be marked "PAT'D".

On the other hand, the folding knives made as SFOs are not as easy to identify. One possible clue may be the presence of a Western pattern number in the usual place on the pile side of one of the blades. I've seen this on two Western-made SFOs. Both were rather early (1930s and early 1940s); it isn't clear if this was their usual practice, or if it was continued.

Companies known to have purchased SFOs from Western include Western Auto (confirmed by several fixed-blade knives that seemed to parallel the West-Cut K-series), Sears (confirmed by two different Western knives, one marked "Ted Williams" and the other "Craftsman"), possibly Montgomery Wards (a very "Westernish" stockman with a Montgomery Wards brand but the booth owner wasn't available to take it out of the case so I could look closer), Coast Cutlery (confirmed by multiple examples of fixed blades made by Western), and Boker (one fixed blade was noted, and a couple more mentioned in various internet discussions).

I'm sure there were more, and hope folks will post information as they run across it.

Edited to add: LLBean, courtesy of Knifeaholic

The Westco note
"Westco" is a bit of a headache. Western used "Westco" and "West Co" for what appears to be a line of less-than-premium knives; for example, the Westco folding hunter had a simple nail nick instead of the match-striker nick. These are typically marked "WESTCO" in an arch similar to the "Western States" arch, over "Made in USA."

Western also did several SFOs for a company called "Westco Cutlery" in Juneau Alaska. These are usually marked "WESTCO CUTLERY, JUNEAU, ALASKA" on the mark side, and "MADE IN USA, PATENTED" on the pile side, or "WESTCO CUTLERY CO, JUNEAU ALASKA, PAT'D MADE IN USA" in three lines on the mark side.

It isn't clear when these were made, or if there was any connection beyond SFOs. The examples I've seen seem to me to be 1970s production.

Jim

[knifeaholic]

LLBean had some knives made by Western. At least trapper patterns, possibly others. Of course KABAR and others made knives for Bean as well.

[coffeecup]

Isn't it "WESTACO" not "WESTCO" on the lower end line?

Also, LLBean had some knives made by Western. At least trapper patterns, possibly others. Of course KABAR and others made knives for Bean as well.

The Westaco/Westco/West Co (or possibly "West-Co") question threw me for a while. To date, I've found the "Westaco" mark on folders and fixed-blade knives made with the patented split tang. So far, the "Westco" and West Co" marks seem to be restricted to folders (other than the Westco Juneau marked knives) --but I've got a small sample, so I'm not sure if it means anything. I've found all three marks on otherwise identical folding hunters. The two West Co folding hunters had Western pattern numbers, so I'm pretty sure they were by or for Western.

Thanks for the note on LLBean, I've got that added to my list now.

[jerryd6818]

For the life of me I can't come up with a logical advantage for the "patented split tang". Seems like someone came up with that brain child and marketing ran with it.

You mentioned Coast. So it's possible my Coast lock back was made by Western?

[tongueriver]

Coffee, thanks for the very interesting thread. Do you have the book "knifemakers Who Went West," by Platts? I am busy now, but hope to contribute to this thread soon.

[coffeecup]

Had a thought while at work today: what if Westco was always a SFO label, and later aquired or assigned to the folks in Juneau? That might explain the Westco-marked knives that aren't marked Juneau Alaska. Or not. The arched marking seems to be earlier; maybe the Juneau deal came along later.

Jerry, in addition to the advertising claims, there are some advantages to the split-tang construction. It allowed the use of one blade blank for both stacked-leather-washer handles (usually found only on stick-tang knives) and for handles made with traditional scales. This could add up to some significant savings in tooling and inventory: use one setup to make the blanks in bulk, then pull them from stock and finish in whichever style was being ordered.

Split-tang construction works well for the use of traditional scales of wood, bone, plastics, etc. It works well for stacked leather washers too, but doesn't hold up as well due to the additional exposed but unsealed leather along the surfaces of the split tangs. It is a trade-off. For my purposes, I can spend a few hours re-building the stacked-leather handle on a stick-tang knife, or maybe an additional hour doing a Western; I consider the additional time well-spent to get the quality of steel and heat-treatment used by Western. Re-building a "normal" flat-tanged knife with solid scales takes about the same amount of time as does re-building a Western with solid scales, so that's a wash.

I can't tell if your knife was made by Western--my focus is earlier, and it doesn't look like any Western I know. But then again, that style of handle seems to have become popular after the time when Coleman purchased Western, so it could have been made by Western under Coleman ownership, or even by Camillus. I'd look for similar knives (and handles) in Coleman and Camillus pricelists/catalogs.

Tongueriver, I do have a copy of Platt's book. (Somewhere. Right now my books are in chaos as I'm trying to sort out and reduce the number of books on hand by 1,000 by the end of the year. What a stupid New Year's resolution that was!) As helpful as it is, Platt's book does have some shortcomings. The catalogs etc don't illustrate all the models of knives made over the years, and coverage of SFOs made by or for Western is woefully inadequate.

Now there's a topic: who all made SFOs for Western States/Western? The early carving sets with the etches but no marks seem--based on workmanship and some stylistic details--to have been made by the same maker as did the Western States Camp Knife, but the etches are different. And who made sheaths for Western? Other than some of the early ones, most of them were worthless.

Technical details are not addressed well either. I'd like to know why they seem to have used thinner leather on the stacked-leather-washer handles than almost all other makers. Was it economics? Was there a technical reason, like maybe thinner leather punched easier, or faster? Or did they just use scrap from whomever was making their lousy sheaths? I'm about 99% sure they used 1095 for their non-stainless blades, but how did they heat treat it?

Too many questions, not enough answers available--but that is where the fun is sometimes!

Jim

[tongueriver]

Now there's a topic: who all made SFOs for Western States/Western? The early carving sets with the etches but no marks seem--based on workmanship and some stylistic details--to have been made by the same maker as did the Western States Camp Knife, but the etches are different. And who made sheaths for Western? Other than some of the early ones, most of them were worthless.
Jim

I have this one. On the "left" tang is stamped WESTERN in a fairly large block font. On the "right" tang is stamped WESTERN STATES/ CUT CO DISTR/ BOULDER, COLO. This stamp is very small. I own an old KABAR which looks almost identical, but with a green swirl cell handle, slightly fancier spacers, and a little bigger. Then I saw one that I think was absolutely identical to the one I show here, on ebay, but was not able to purchase it. I am relatively certain that KABAR made some knives for Western at the very end of the 1920s, as Western was gearing up to make their own.

[kdpurcell]

Hello. I am new to AAPK. I joined to try and increase my knowledge of all the differenet knife makers in the 20th century. I am working on a collection that features every brand of knife in the three blade sowbelly pattern.
I have only ever seen one western brand sowbelly. If you have any photos please share.