Looking for info on this barlow

[morglan]

I just received what appears to be a Camillus New York Made in USA Barlow with a long pull, spear point master and an unmarked pen. Handle looks like sawcut bone, but could be delrin.

My concern is that it has been rebladed, or is simply a fake, but Im no expert. The blades just seem too 'shiny', and the master sits a little low against the spring in the open position.

Here are some pics:

[travman]

Morglan
looks to me like you have a mid 60s early 70s #50 Barlow with spear point blades that has seen little use
The Camillus catalogs list the handles as "Phenolic"and or "Carbone"
I would think the back of the main blade should have the number 50 stamped into it
Ive got a couple barlows from same timeframe with the blades also not flush with the backspings
It is a nice loooking knife IMO
Trav

[morglan]

Thanks for the.info travman! I really like the knife, and now I'm happy to know its legitimate.

[Miller Bro's]

Looks like real bone to me

[morglan]

After looking closer, I don't see a '50' stamped on the blade. The handles really do look and feel like bone to me too.

[jerryd6818]

The handles really do look and feel like bone to me too.

Use the "tap method" to find out. Tap the handle on the edge of your lower, front teeth. If it makes a sharp "clink" sound, it's bone. If it makes a duller "clunk" sound, it's synthetic. Compare two knives with known handle materials and you will easily see the distinctive difference.

Welcome to AAPK. I hope you hang around a while.

[morglan]

Well, according to my teeth, it matches my S&M bone-handled barlow, so I think it's bone. The colors match too, see:




Jerry--seeing as I can't seem to shake my new addiction to traditionals, I guess I'll be around for awhile.

[jerryd6818]

Good to hear Morglan. BTW, I have one of those S&Ms also. Mine's a '92. Neat little knife.

[carrmillus]

Morglan
looks to me like you have a mid 60s early 70s #50 Barlow with spear point blades that has seen little use
The Camillus catalogs list the handles as "Phenolic"and or "Carbone"
I would think the back of the main blade should have the number 50 stamped into it
Ive got a couple barlows from same timeframe with the blades also not flush with the backspings
It is a nice loooking knife IMO
Trav

i think the pattern no. for a camillus standard barlow is #51, daddy barlow is #9.

[carrmillus]

Morglan
looks to me like you have a mid 60s early 70s #50 Barlow with spear point blades that has seen little use
The Camillus catalogs list the handles as "Phenolic"and or "Carbone"
I would think the back of the main blade should have the number 50 stamped into it
Ive got a couple barlows from same timeframe with the blades also not flush with the backspings
It is a nice loooking knife IMO
Trav

only camillus catalog i have is 1976, and they list the handles as "cabone".

[Ramrod]

Heres a link to some Camillus catalogs...
http://www.collectors-of-camillus.us/Ca ... talogs.htm
The 1948 catalog (pg5) lists the Barlow as bone handled.
The 1951 catalog (pg3) lists it as unbreakable plastic.
I sure do like the looks of yours Morglan... And welcome to the site!
Mark

[travman]

The 1965 camillus catalog list a # 50 as having the spear point blade and a #51 having a clip blade
They list the # 50 untill the 1973 catalog, i dont have a 1974 or 1975 catalog
but in 1976 there is only the listing for the # 50 with the clip blade they may have stopped making the spear point version

The 1946 catalog list the barlows as #10 spear point and # 11 clip blade but they had TIP TOP on the bolsters and bone handles
The 1948 catalog list them as # 10 spear and # 11 clip blades with Camillus on the bolsters, I dont recall seeing a barlow with Camillus on the bolsters ,maybe they changed it to Barlow after the catalog came out .
If someone has a Camillus Barlow with the Camillus on the bolsters instead of Barlow please show a picture of it
Trav

[morglan]

After looking at the catalogs, mine has to be either from the late 40's (assuming the handle is bone) or from the 70's (due the the "mirror polished" blades-- which mine has).

As much as I would like it to be from the 40's, its probably a 70's version, and I'm starting to think 'cabone' may be their name for some type of actual bone (I'm about 99% sure my handles are bone, not synthetic.)

Travman, now you're going to have me scouring the internet for a Camillus bolstered Barlow!

[orvet]

Cabone was Camillus' name for one of their synthetic handles. I believe it was Delrin.
When Camillus handled their knives with bone they called it bone.
Bone handles were more expensive than synthetic.
Bone handles were a mark of quality.
They would not seek to disguise it with another name.

[morglan]

Orvet--

That's good to know, but it still confuses me. Do you have any pics of a cabone handle from that period? Did it look like my pics above? I really don't think the handles on mine are synthetic--there's too much depth to them.

[robinetn]

The 1965 camillus catalog list a # 50 as having the spear point blade and a #51 having a clip blade
They list the # 50 untill the 1973 catalog, i dont have a 1974 or 1975 catalog
but in 1976 there is only the listing for the # 50 with the clip blade they may have stopped making the spear point version

The 1946 catalog list the barlows as #10 spear point and # 11 clip blade but they had TIP TOP on the bolsters and bone handles
The 1948 catalog list them as # 10 spear and # 11 clip blades with Camillus on the bolsters, I dont recall seeing a barlow with Camillus on the bolsters ,maybe they changed it to Barlow after the catalog came out .
If someone has a Camillus Barlow with the Camillus on the bolsters instead of Barlow please show a picture of it
Trav

These are definitely bone . Click on pic for a really good examination . (1948 catalog page 5)

Bob R. (RIDGEWOOD CUTLERY)

[orvet]

Orvet--

That's good to know, but it still confuses me. Do you have any pics of a cabone handle from that period? Did it look like my pics above? I really don't think the handles on mine are synthetic--there's too much depth to them.

Morglan-
I will have to do some digging to see if I have a Barlow of the proper vintage or another pattern with a cabone handle.

I have a few Barlows like yours, I know they are bone.
Yours is a very nice example of a 1950s brown bone Barlow, model #50.

[travman]

Thanks robinetn
for showing those two examples
Two knives same time era with different tang stamps
It goes to prove you can not use the tang stamp on Camillus knives as the only way to age a knife
I think it shows that they didnt throw anything away and would use it when needed to fill in an order ?
Now all we need is to find a Camillus catalog from the 50s to help fill in some more of the blanks
Like what year did they stop with Camillus on the Barlows ?
Morglan can you post another pic of the tang stamp rotated 90 degrees..?
Thanks Trav

[morglan]

Thanks Orvet--I appreciate the info. Is it normal that "50" is not stamped on the back of the master blade?

Trav, I will try to get some more pics up for you tomorrow.

[travman]

Morglan
I figured out how to rotate the picture
the tang is defenitly a 60-76 The handles should be Carbone (plastic)with #50 stamped on the
reverse side of main blade.Maybe it did not get stamped ?
Possibly the handles were replaced at one time? Or did the main blade get replaced?
Its a great looking knife would make a great EDC
Trav

[orvet]

Bernard Levine said; “Dating knives by the tang stamp is a fools game.”

Tom Williams the Camillus Company Historian told me that Camillus tang stamps can be very deceptive; one can date the knives better by materials, technology and manufacturing techniques, rather than by the stamp. Tom pointed out that even these methods of dating Camillus knives are not foolproof. Changes could be made in the middle of a production run depending on the availability of parts. If they had an order for 10,000 knives and they had pre-made 5000 liners for prong type handles they would begin the production run with the prong type parts and switch over to stud type handles when they had exhausted the pre-existing supply.

It seems that Camillus did not throw anything away, but would keep it and use it later. Tom told me the tang stamps were kept on a shelf in the factory. When someone needed to stamp a batch of blades they would grab a stamp and use it, even if it was not the current stamp being used at that time. Now, this strikes me as a strange way to run a factory, but that is what Tom told me, so I will take him at his word. Tom should know what he is talking about, he worked there for 30 years and his mother worked there for over 50 years.

I believe the Cabone handles were a jigged synthetic handle material.

This is from a 2009 post on AAPK by Steve Pfeiffer (knifeaholic):

The Camillus knife in that auction has jigged black compostion handles. I do not think they were delrin since the use of that material by Camillus (I believe) predates the invention of delrin.

Camillus used the term "Cabone" in their catalogs to denote imitation jigged bone (compostion) handles. Just as KABAR used the term "KASTAG" to denoteds their imitation bone handles, and Case used the term "Delstag".

From what I have seen of older Camillus knives and catalogs, they used that jigged black compostion material as well as genuine jigged broen bone on the "three-line" stamped knives starting after WWII and continuing into the 1950's.

Then at some point they swithced to a compostion that was similar in appearance (jiggin wise) but had a deep maroon color.

Then later by the 1970's they had switched to the more familiar delrin imitation bone handles that had a combination of brown and tan colors.

I think that the progression from black to maroon to the delrin with more color represented advances in the plastics industry in terms of both the materials used and the coloring processes.

But the catalogs at least in the 1970's called the material "Cabone". I always assumed that the "Ca" was from the name Camillus.

You can read the thread at this link:
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... ne#p112547

I did more digging after finding the above post.
I have a copy of the 1965 catalog Tom Williams sent me.
Here is a page from that 1965 catalog showing.

As you can see the Cabone handles are very different from the saw cut bone in the Barlow in question. Cabone was obviously a jigged material, in this instance.

Thanks robinetn
for showing those two examples
Two knives same time era with different tang stamps
It goes to prove you can not use the tang stamp on Camillus knives as the only way to age a knife
I think it shows that they didnt throw anything away and would use it when needed to fill in an order ?
Now all we need is to find a Camillus catalog from the 50s to help fill in some more of the blanks
Like what year did they stop with Camillus on the Barlows ?
Thanks Trav

I was curious as to when Camillus did stop putting the Camillus name on the bolsters of the Barlow, so I did some checking in the catalogs I have.
The Camillus name is there on the #10 & #11 Barlows in the 1948 catalog.

By 1951 it appears that only the name “Barlow” is on the bolsters and that the numbers have changed.

Camillus Barlow -1951 catalog.JPG (47.57 KiB) Viewed 5482 times

In 1965 we again see the name “Barlow” on the bolsters and it is now pattern #51.

Camillus Barlow- 1965 catalog.JPG (49.05 KiB) Viewed 5482 times

Tom did mention that Camillus had changed their numbering system after WW II, but it appears the Barlow pattern changed twice.
I do not have an explanation for this. I will have to ask Tom next time I talk to him.
At this point I have more questions than I did before we started on this, but I am sure the Barlow posted by
morglan is a bone handled Barlow, not cabone.

Dale

PS-Just to confuse everyone further, I did find a 1972 catalog drawing of a Daddy Barlow with saw cut type Cabone handles.

Another knife mystery.
To be continued (no doubt).........

[morglan]

Here are.some more pics:

[smokepole]

morglan, that is a fine looking knife, no matter if the handles are bone or Cabone, it's a keeper!

[jerryd6818]

Morglan - I copied the picture to my box, lightened and made it a little brighter, then magnified it to about plus %400. I can see the little veins in the bone (I forget what they're called.). There's no doubt in my mind the handles of the knife marked Barlow on the bolster, are made of bone.

[jon_slider]

Good Evening Gentlemen

so, I have this pair of Tip Tops inbound and wondered what you think the jigged handle is, Bone or Cabone?

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-o2ac ... 524_57.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QKkO ... 4_57-1.JPG

thanks for any thoughts
Happy New Year!