Older knives,

Blade Runner · Post by **Blade Runner** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:35 am

Well, Charlie I'll bet you have handled the genuine article. Yes I have compared imitation tortoise to genuine tortoise and if you are relying on your eyes sometimes it can be difficult to discern the difference. A brisk rubbing with a soft cloth causes the celluloid to give off a destinctive odor.
Gary

Blade Runner · Post by **Blade Runner** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:48 am

Well now, here's a stately old gentleman. This is a pre-1920 Case's Bradford. The apostrophe "S" is rather rare it usually reads "CASE Bradford". The pattern is 6223. Note the coffin lower bolster and Case's famous green bone.
Gary

orvet · Post by **orvet** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:30 am

Back in the 1980s when I was managing a cutlery store, I had a Henkel's sales rep named John who had a hobby of repairing old pocket knives. Henkel's had stopped making pocket knives but had given him a lot of repair parts for their older knives, as he did repair is for them.

Included in these parts were genuine tortoise scales for some of their older knives. He had so many parts he was able to make new knives from the parts and made himself a tortoise handled pocket knife. He said that genuine tortoise has a feel all of its own. It's not cold like plastic or bone but has a but has a warmth to it. While I didn't see the knife, I do remember how much he liked it. I have always wanted to see a knife in real tortoise and handle it to see what he was talking about.

So Gary, does the tortoise shell scales have a different or unique feel to it, or was that just one man's perception?
BTW,

beautiful knife!

Dale

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:59 am

man o man these knives are great, there is not much better than an old case.

here's a old robeson. got only 5 numbers in the pattern.

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:52 am

Good morning everyone

I think this c1890s German pen knife has genuine tortise shell handles. I'll try a side by side comparison with a new faux shell handle this weekend. Back to work for me

s-k

Blade Runner · Post by **Blade Runner** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:19 am

Well, while we are waiting for SK to get off work here is a 6207LP, with green bone handles. He is from the tested era (c.1920-1940). Notice how the older ones had a pen secondary blade. IIRC sometime in the early 1980's Case changed the secondary blade to a spay blade.
Gary

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 1:59 pm

Hi here are some knives for comparison. The new Boker is faux tortise shell and I think that the other two are real shell. The difference seems to be that the plastic is very smooth. The other two have the slightest texture. This could be just a result of the age difference and some scuffing over the years. The Boker has clear, brown and yellow patches. The clear patches are clear, whereas on the two older knives, the light bits appear transluscent but not perfectly clear. The other difference is that the older knives appear to have reddish halos arround the light patches but the new one does not. Of course, I could be completely wrong as I am generalising from a small sample. The Boker is not celluloid in the true sense so i don't know what an older celluloid faux shell looks like. Anyway that is the best I can do for now. Maybe someone can set us all straight on the issue.

stockman · Post by **stockman** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:53 pm

I know that this is real tortise it is old I hope it is OK to post but it is not a actual knife. It is a EVANS lancet. It has a crown above the word EVANS. The tortise is very thin and the lighter parts are see through. As before my pics are still bad will continue to try to get better. Maybe S-K can tell us about this lancet, I also have the orginal box.

Stockman

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:03 pm

That is very nice stockman. Much better with the cropped photo too. Well done

I'm not sure about that company name, more likely a medical supply co then a general cutlery company. In the good old days, a tool for lancing boils

, draining infections etc. Very nice. Could we see the box too please? Does it say where it was made? Have a great weekend

s-k

stockman · Post by **stockman** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:22 pm

Hello all, S-K here is the box a small two piece box. The only markings are as in the earlier post.

Stockman

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:26 pm

Now that's a box

Thanks stockman... I'll see if I can find some more info for us.

s-k

stockman · Post by **stockman** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:31 pm

I've checked all my books, BL has some but not on Evans.

Stockman

orvet · Post by **orvet** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:34 pm

Wow! All this tortoise is very interesting. Neat stuff

Stockman,
I checked Goin's and did not find anything on EVANS there either. S-K is probably right, it may have been a medical supply company.

I did find a pictures of a few tortoise shell knives in The Forth edition of The Standard Knife Collector's Guide by Ritchie & Stewart. Their picture had genuine tortoise & simulated tortoise side by side. The simulated tortoise seems to be much lighter & the lighter bits seem more transparent than lighter bits in the genuine tortoise, much the same as the examples posted by S-K.

I got to thinking about an old Wilbert I have, and now think it may also be genuine tortoise. I had originally thought it was celluloid, but now I am not sure.

Here is a quick scan of the Wilbert. The handle does not have the shrinkage often seen in celluloid of that age. Wilbert was a brand name made for Sears & Roebuck, circa 1908 to 1921. I think this knife was made by Empire, as I saw one almost identical recently on ebay, that was made by Empire. At any rate, if it is genuine tortoise, it is not the best example around.

Dale

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:43 pm

Hi Dale. Can't say forsure, but my hypothesis would be that a celluloid handle of that age would not be in nearly that good condition. Regardless, it is a nice old knife. I do have one more... an old german tuxedo with what I think to be t.s. handle.

upnorth · Post by **upnorth** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:20 pm

Thanks everyone for providing the Tortoise examples. It seems when the finish is smooth, celluloid is much more transparent generally, than the real shell. Here's a new one fresh out of the box for comparison (the other is waterfall). I'll try to stick to older knives!

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:30 pm

Hi upnorth, what is the waterfall handle material please? Are those harness jacks?

s-k

orvet · Post by **orvet** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:44 pm

Charlie,
Is that genuine tortoise ? It is pretty.

Dale

upnorth · Post by **upnorth** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:57 pm

They are both celluloid handles, guys. Years ago, one of the handle companies sent me some samples, and I had Queen put them on my latest run of HJs. There was enough for 2 of each; you might be able to read the etch.
s-k, waterfall has an optical effect in it; when you tilt the handle, it looks like there is a current flowing in the swirled composition of cream and clear colors. Some are quite lively. It won't show in the scans unfortunately.

Blade Runner · Post by **Blade Runner** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:03 am

Thanks for the info and beautiful knives, upnorth. Here's a 6279 green bone Case from the early tested era.
Gary

upnorth · Post by **upnorth** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:34 am

You have a nice collection of older Case knives, Gary! Thanks for letting us look!
You see all sorts of shading in that greenbone. If it's lighter or darker, how do you know if it is greenbone that you have?
For example, here are three Case knives. The top is a Case XX, and has lighter handles, dark tan looking, with a slightly reddish look, and it could be argued that there is a hint of green there. Then a Case Tested, with a brown that hints of red and green, that most would call greenbone. Finally, the Tested barlow has handles even darker than yours above, but in strong light I see hints of green and red.
Confusing, for me anyway!

sharkman · Post by **sharkman** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:38 pm

Here's a old case 6231 1/2.

muskrat man · Post by **muskrat man** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:59 pm

How about a CsC equal end jack?

smiling-knife · Post by **smiling-knife** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:30 pm

Forgive the cross posting as this is in the Europen forum also. Here are two older jacks I acquired this week. The black one is Wostenholm I*XL and the othe H Boker & Co Improved Cutlery. If you have any advice re dating the Boker, please see the stamps in the other forum.

s-k

Blade Runner · Post by **Blade Runner** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:01 pm

Hi Charlie,
You are right there are many shades of green bone. I can see a hint of green in your tested barlow without the strong light, and IMO it would be considered green bone. The other two are green bone also. My observation has been that when most collectors see what is known by many as green bone jigging, then it is green bone. Most green bone on Case Bradford, Tested, and early XX era knives have tight and fine cuts that run in a series of straight lines. Green bone from the earlier WR era will many times have bigger cuts, that are a little more random in their placement. Very early Rodgers bone on WR and Bradford era knives are many times different than early rodgers on tested and XX era knives. Now I am rambling, so I hope I interpreted your question correctly and answered it to your satisfaction
Gary

Blade Runner · Post by **Blade Runner** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:16 pm

Beautiful Cutters SK. Now speaking of Rodgers bone. Here is an example from the Wr stamping. The pattern # is 6208. As many of you know sometimes years ago Case would retire a pattern # and pick it back up later on a completly different knife. Today that number belongs to the half whittler. Anyway even though this knife has seen significant use, the extreme rarity of it still makes it desirable.
Gary

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Another celluloid tortoise