Camillus electrican's knife variations

[FRJ]

Here's another variation:

Shallow bail, two holes, plastic handles, CAMCO USA, pattern number, back unfinished, half stops.

I wonder when this was made.... ?


Where did "TL29" come from?

[orvet]

Where did "TL29" come from?
[/quote]

From the US Army Signal Corps.
It stands for TOOL, LINESMAN, 29
It was used with the TOOL, LINESMAN, 13A - a pair of pliers.

They were carried in a POUCH TYPE CS-34 - leather pouch
or in POUCH CS-35A which was the web carrier made when leather was in short supply.

Note, this military nomenclature is from WWII, pouch nomenclature for WWI may have been different.

History:
The TL-29 was introduced for the US Army Signal Corps prior to WWI. The new invention of the telephone greatly increased communication on the battlefield. You had field phones (hard wire phones) instead of runners, (soldiers on foot running from trench to trench to carry messages and orders).

The hard wire field phone let people communicate instantly over the battlefield and even to the rear, but it required a lot of men to run the wire and to repair the broken, cut, blown up, etc wires. That was the job of the lineman. The TL-29 & TL-13 were some of the Linesman's key tools.

Here are some quick pics of the pouch with the tools.

I hope this helps,
Dale

[FRJ]

Dale, your post helps a great deal. I really like those snippets of history.

Amazing, keeping a hard line phone up and running on a battle field.

I'm glad I asked. Thank you for that lesson.

So, where does my knife fit in the scheme of things? I'm curious about the CAMCO name and the date.
Can you tell me? Thanks again.

[Dale Miller]

Being real new at this I haven't as yet learned how to attach pictures, but as I mentioned in earler reply I have TL-29, with the TL-29 stamped on handle shield. Does this shield have a bearing on the year knife was made?

D. Miller

[orvet]

Hey Joe & Dale,
I am always glad to share a little history. The historical dimension of collecting is as interesting to me as the knives them selves at times.

I have been working with Tom Williams who was the Historian for Camillus Cutlery Co. to set up some lists of Camillus knives much like what I did with Schrade, (see the Research Section here on AAPK under Schrade). There are a number of reasons that that is a much more difficult task with Camillus than it was with Schrade. Nonetheless, I am working on it.

I am going to post some notes that I have posted in another topic here in the Camillus Collectors Forum. The topic is “Camillus WWII and Before,” about page 4.



Joe- The CAMCO name was introduced in 1948 as a low price alternative to the regular Camillus brand. I would guesstimate your knife from the 1960s or 1970s.

Dale – Here is a link to explain how to post pics: http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... 63&t=12128

The shield would very likely have bearing on the year the knife was made.
What does the shield say? What is the handle material?

These are the notes from my interview with Tom Williams, February 16, 2010

The Camillus brand name was first used in 1902.
The name "Sword Brand" was first used in 1906.
Sword Brand was the best quality. They were the top line produced by Camillus.

The tang stamp with the word "Camillus" arched on the top line was used around World War I.
Prior to World War II most stamps were four-line stamps: CAMILLUS/CUTLERY CO./CAMILLUS N.Y./U.S.A.
On smaller knives the USA was dropped, making it a three-line tang stamp to fit on smaller tangs.

After World War II the word "CUTLERY" was dropped from the tang stamps and never used again with the exception of the Marine Raider Stiletto reproduction and the A425 (USCG knife) reproductions of the 1990s. In both reproductions the original tang stamps had been saved and were used on the reproduction knives.

The four-line tang stamp was dropped around 1945 or 1946. There were a large number of parts left over from wartime orders that were canceled at the end of the war. Two or three days after the atomic bombs were dropped in Japan Camillus received a cancellation of an order for 250,000 ML-K knives, (sometimes called demo of knives).
Since Camillus was actively producing this order at the time of cancellation there was a great number of left over parts. Camillus continued to produce knives with the four-line stamp until they ran out of blades that had already been manufactured with the four-line stamp prior to the cancellation of the DOD order. How many years it took them to use up the blades (tens of thousands?) that had already been made for the wartime orders is not known.

Sword Brand knives-
Prior to World War II Sword Brand was stamped on the Sword Brand knives. After the war most of the Sword Brand knives had the Sword Brand etched on the blade instead of stamp on the tang.

Camco brand knives-
1948 marks the introduction of the Camco brand. There were no Camco knives made prior to 1948.
In the mid 1980s there were some Camco knives made at the Schrade factory in Ireland. This is where the Irish Camco knives came from.

1963-Albert Baer, then the owner of the Ulster Knife Company and Schrade Walden bought out the remaining stock of Camillus Cutlery Company that was held by the Kastor family and the Wallace family, after the death of Alfred Kastor, the son of Adolph Kastor. Adolph Kastor had emigrated from Germany to the United States in the 1830s.

Tips on Dating Camillus Knives

Part of the purpose of this interview with Tom was to help establish some guidelines for dating Camillus knives by tangs stamps. Tom maintains that dating Camillus by tang stamps is next to impossible, as Camillus never threw tang stamps away. They were kept on a shelf in the factory. Tom told me that there were times when someone would get the wrong stamp off the shelf and they would produce a run of knives with an old tang stamp. Add to that the fact that there were often many extra blades produced in a production run; some for warrantee claims, and perhaps because they anticipated additional sales. If the overrun blades were never used up in the original production run, or by a reorder, they were nonetheless kept and usually used at a later date in other knives. The World War II cancellation of the ML-K knife contract is an excellent example of this.

Tom suggested the best way to date Camillus knives is to look at the materials, technology and manufacturing techniques used in the production of the knife in question.

Looking at the handles is an excellent way to apply this method of dating.
Delrin was introduced to Camillus knives in the early 1970s.
Early scales were pinned onto the liners.
Later a prong construction method was used. In this method a piece of the liner was stamped and bent outward and the hot prong was pushed into the handle material.
A third method of attaching handles to the knife was called stud construction. In this method a piece of handle material (the stud) was pushed through a hole in the liner. I have observed this method on many the later production TL-29 electrician knives. It appears to me that a heat source was used to flare the end of the stud so that it would not pull out of the liner. I have worked on a number of knives with this method of construction and generally the stud type handles are very secure and difficult to remove from the liners. It was a very effective method.

Tom pointed out that even these methods of dating Camillus knives are not foolproof. Changes could be made in the middle of a production run depending on the availability of parts. If they had an order for 10,000 knives and they had pre-made 5000 liners for prong type handles they would begin the production run with the prong type parts and switch over to stud type handles when they had exhausted the pre-existing supply.

- End of interview notes -


There are a number of things in the notes from this interview that have a direct bearing on the knives in this thread.
If you notice in the pictures that mtds posted, he mentioned the numbers of pins in the scales (handles). The only pins that really count as scale pins are those that only hold the scales on.
The pin at the very end of the knife is the rear pin, which holds the back of the knife together. That is its main function. The fact that it holds the scale as well is secondary to its main purpose of holding the knife together.
The same is true of the rocker pin, the pin that is approximately in the middle of the knife at the bottom. The rocker pin holds the backsprings in place so that there is tension on the blade in the blades are open. It coincidently helps to hold the scales in place.
The same is true of the rivet that holds on the bail in the case of the deep bails. Its primary purpose is to hold the bail on, not to hold the handle.
Only the pins that hold the scales to the liner are normally called scale pins.

If you look at the second picture in mtds’ first post in this topic you will see where he has four knives with different pin configurations. Only the bottom knife has no handle pins. I have a bunch of Camillus TL-29s that are of this construction. These are the most recent of the handle variations. These are what Tom referred to as "stud construction" handles. A ‘stud’ of handle material protrudes through two holes in the liner and are melted off on the inside of the liner to hold the handle to the liner. These are very secure handles and nearly impossible to take apart. I will try to take some pictures next time I disassembled one of these.

Tom also mentioned "prong construction" in the interview. I have seen from construction used on some Camillus knives, however I have not seen it used in the TL-29 pattern.

I hope this information is helpful.
I realize it will probably raise as many questions as it answers, so ask more questions and I will get to them as I have time.

I hope you all enjoy collecting Camillus knives & TL-29s as much as I do.
Dale

[Dale Miller]

Dale (orvet customs) Thanks for your time and effort in posting such great information on the TL-29 and Camillus knives in General. I am not very good with these computers, but I will learn to post pictures in the future, thanks for the help. My orginal interest was sparked by the fact I have what I thing is a ww11 goverment issue utility knife, it has great brown bone jigged handles, the 4 line Camillus stamp and shield with USA stamped on it and a TL-29 with it stamped on the same shaped shield as the utility knife. Quite a nice knife for a goverment issue. To add to the History lesson, I was surprised to learn that camillus was allowed to keep anything left over from the war production effort, here in Michigan, almost all our plants were convereted to war production, from B 24 bombers to canteens and everything in between. At the end of the war, everything was destroyed by the DOD, from the machinery they had provided, production in process and all raw materials. One of the most interesting facts is that even the scrap metal was buried and not sent to the scrap yard, desks, lighting fixtures and all associated items were crushed and buried. The reason for this total destruction of this war based economy was the simple fact the goverment didn't want these items to wind up in the main stream economy at the end of the war. It was a good move, as when the soldiers returned home, there were jobs, as everything in the manufacturing community had to be rebuilt.

Thanks again, Dale Miller

[mtds]

Thanks for a great post. Just what I was hoping to get when I started this thread: an opportunity to learn more about this pattern.

You said, Delrin was introduced to Camillus knives in the early 1970s.

Orvet, do you know offhand what material was used before the Delrin?

[orvet]

My orginal interest was sparked by the fact I have what I thing is a ww11 goverment issue utility knife, it has great brown bone jigged handles, the 4 line Camillus stamp and shield with USA stamped on it and a TL-29 with it stamped on the same shaped shield as the utility knife. Quite a nice knife for a goverment issue.

Dale,
Similar to this one which has no shield?

I would love to see a picture of yours.
My email address is in my signature line below. If you can email it to me, I can post it.

You said, Delrin was introduced to Camillus knives in the early 1970s.

Orvet, do you know offhand what material was used before the Delrin?

Well, for all TL-29 companies in general:
Wood definitely was used pre-WWII; bone, some Bakelite and I imagine some use of celluloid as well.

I see where this little topic is going to continue to grow, probably for a few months yet. I am going to need to check with Tom Williams with a list of questions, go through a pile of paper copies and electronic copies of production records, S-cards, and some military production records that he has already sent me. There is a lot to go through and I have only limited time in a day to devote to it.
It's summertime, and for those of you who were wondering; yes, I really do have a life off AAPK.
I have some family events coming up in the next few weeks as well as a big backlog of knife repairs and custom orders I need to get out. Keep the discussion going and I will contribute as I can.

There are lots of people who know about these knives, I'm learning along with everyone else. Look how much we have learned so far from mtds’ posts so far!
Learning is not about knowing the answers; it is about asking the right questions!

Dale

[Miller Bro's]

This is a very interesting thread
I must say I never thought there was very much interest in these knives.
I have owned at least a 100 or more over the years, gave most away and sold the rest.
Never really paid much attention to them , UNLESS they had Bone handles!

I have a dozen or more laying around that I will photogragh and post pictures of when I get the time.


"The four-line tang stamp was dropped around 1945 or 1946. There were a large number of parts left over from wartime orders that were canceled at the end of the war. Two or three days after the atomic bombs were dropped in Japan Camillus received a cancellation of an order for 250,000 ML-K knives, (sometimes called demo of knives).
Since Camillus was actively producing this order at the time of cancellation there was a great number of left over parts. Camillus continued to produce knives with the four-line stamp until they ran out of blades that had already been manufactured with the four-line stamp prior to the cancellation of the DOD order. How many years it took them to use up the blades (tens of thousands?) that had already been made for the wartime orders is not known."

Dale, this is very interesting to me. I bought many years ago a box of Camillus U.S.A. utility knives from a closed military base out west that was in storage from the end of WWII. All the tangs are stamped with the 4-line address, except one that has the 3-line address.

So, maybe they did not have that many left over blades after all, or they changed the stamp in 1944-45 before the war ended. I believe there is a military order number stamped on the box, if somehow someone could look up that number and find out when that order was delivered, it would be proof that the 3-line stamp could have been used well before 1946.

[Vit_213]

My Camillus Electrician knives - three generations of TL-29

Tang stamps

[garddogg56]

Here is a Camillus a hunting buddy gave me original edge and it HAD the packing grease on it

[orvet]

Vit,
Nice historical display.
You have from left to right; a WWI era TL-29, a WWII era Tl-29 and a post-Vietnam era TL-29.

Here is a picture of a Vietnam era issue TL-29.

It was issued to me about 1970 or 1971. Notice it has the same tang stamp as yours, except the top line is not slanted as it is in your example. Also notice that it has a single scale pin at the front of the handle and a shallow bail. I believe this was the tang stamp immediately preceding yours, and when the handles were still pinned to the liners. Later methods of handle attachment were prongs; prongs of the liner were stamped out and bent outward where they were imbedded in the plastic of the handles. The newest TL-29s I have are of post construction. Posts (or rods) of handle material protrude through holes in the liner and appear to be melted off on the inside. They are very difficult to remove. In both prong and the post construction methods there are no external handle pins, only the rocker pin and the pin in the bail, as in your example on the right.

[Vit_213]

You have from left to right; a WWI era TL-29, a WWII era Tl-29 and a post-Vietnam era TL-29.

Thank you Dale!
I can dating it more precisely
Left to right: TL-29A (1919-1929); TL-29 (1943-1945); MIL-K-13419 (late 70s-80s).

I think that your item was made in 1954-1965 (or 68)

[orvet]

That dating is probably as accurate as anyone can be dating a Camillus by the tang stamp.
Tom Williams, who worked at Camillus for 30 years and was the company historian, said that no one can accurately date a knife Camillus by the tang stamp. One must also look at the materials and methods used in making the knife in addition to the tang stamp.

You can read the notes from an interview with Tom on February 16, 2010, where he discussed tang stamps, by scrolling up on this same page. See my second post dated July 19, 2010.

[Hutter]

I have one question. I have a TL-29. Using the specifications from this thread it is a deep bail, 5 pin, three line (Camillus *underlined, New York, USA). The handle is black composite/synthetic material. TL-29 is engraved/stamped into the handle. There is no number stamped into the reverse side of the spear blade from the camillus etc. side. Is this a military issued knife??? It was my grandfathers who served in WWII and retired from the military. He then went back to work at Fort Bragg, N.C. where he worked until he passed in the mid seventies. I never knew him very well, not being born until '73. I would like a little bit of history of it's origin to pass on to my son. I understand that it is not of the WWII era, I would just like to know wether or not it is military issue?

[Vit_213]

I have one question. I have a TL-29. Using the specifications from this thread it is a deep bail, 5 pin, three line (Camillus *underlined, New York, USA). The handle is black composite/synthetic material. TL-29 is engraved/stamped into the handle. There is no number stamped into the reverse side of the spear blade from the camillus etc. side. Is this a military issued knife??? It was my grandfathers who served in WWII and retired from the military. He then went back to work at Fort Bragg, N.C. where he worked until he passed in the mid seventies. I never knew him very well, not being born until '73. I would like a little bit of history of it's origin to pass on to my son. I understand that it is not of the WWII era, I would just like to know wether or not it is military issue?

Yes, it's a military issue.
These attributes correspond to the knives, manufactured from 1950 to 1954. But this time frame may be more.

[Hutter]

Thanks everybody!
Vit_213 that time period fits with the small ammount of info I have. My son will love it all the more and have the cooliest knife in his troop. I am sure my grandfather is smiling about my nostalgic interest and his great grandson carrying his knife.

[Hutter]

Here's the knife or should I say my sons "kewl knife". After he helped in a little clean up. Pretty funny that my android takes better pics than my hp photo smart M415 digi camera.
Thx again.

[PigSticker]

Here's a nice old five hole TL I'm not so sure it's Camulis but the bail looks like other Camilus bails the tang stamp is light--bottom line is all you can read clearly Made in USA when I first looked at it it looked like a Kutmaster tang stamp the screw driver blade is etched and visable-main blade is swedged. Tried getting a clear pic of tang stamp but just can't get a clear image-I'll give it a couple more tries in different light

[mtds]

Since Dale showed us his USMC-issued Camillus, I'll show mine, too. This one was casually handed to me by the Staff Sergeant who ran the maintenance shop where I worked at MCB Twentynine Palms. It was near the end of my enlistment, so '69 or '70. The Marines were notoriously frugal with equipment, so I felt a little honored. I wince when I read that one former sailor threw his Camillus overboard when it unexpectedly closed on his fingers. At least in my unit, almost everything was counted, signed for, and re-counted. Getting a second blanket took connections and maneuvering! Unlike Dale, I had little use for a knife in my daily work, but I held on to it anyway. It is now with my uniform and will eventually belong to my son.

This knife has one scale pin, a shallow bail, and unfinished springs and liners.

[jerryd6818]

Twenty Nine Palms

I extended my enlistment for a year to get out of there. The only good thing about that duty station was the enlisted swimming pool.

[garddogg56]

For variation here's one from 1940's and one of the last USA's.

[Old Hunter]

I posted this in a general knife thread up top last night, but I guess it rightly goes here too. I bought this late Camillus USA #27 yesterday from a pawn & gun, no box or blister package but new and unused. Strong snap and cool coloring in the Delrin handles.

[garddogg56]

gets better every time I see it OH

[Old Hunter]

Added a second variation yesterday, the Camillus Hawkbill (TL29) to pair up with the TL27 I already had. Some differences; the 29 has unfinished springs, the 27 is nicely finished, the tang stamps are different, and the model number "27" is marked on the reverse of the tang on the Spear blade. The 29 has no model number marking on it anywhere. The screwdriver blade on the 27 has an etched instruction for releasing the blade, which is lacking on the 29. Both are new old stock knives bought in the last month.