Narzi Knife from New YawK??

[Owd Wullie]

OK folks, for your perusal is a UTICA CUTLERY stockman style folder with a very interesting shield. What got a few of us looking at this thing is what's left of a pocket knife posted on a German Militaria site. That knife is beat all to pieces and they are asking a LOT of money for it for the shape it's in. Here's a link to that one.
http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Politica ... 08458.html

According to those guys, this knife was issued to the "Deutsches Jungvolk" which was the 10 -14 year old division of the Hitler Youth. NOW the question I have is this. With all those magnificent German cutlery houses in full swing before WWII, why would UTICA Cutlery be making knives for a German para military organisation for kids?









Any body got any ideas as to the solution to this mystery? Posted below is a picture from a 1930's photo album of some "DEUTSCHES JUNGVOLK" clearly showing the "sigrune" or lighting bolt that was used by that organization.

[rangerbluedog]

The American Nazi party, or German American Bund, was very active in New York and New Jersey in the 1930's. Maybe it was a SFO.

[knife7knut]

I don't believe it has anything to do with the Nazi party;American or otherwise.I think it is merely a Utica knife with a somewhat rare shield.As for the one listed on the other site;it is likely a Utica that has obviously been re-bladed at some point.I wouldn't put too much credence in someone who describes the waterfall celluloid scales as,"two-toned green camouflage".Just my opinion folks.That would be akin to someone attributing certain native American tribal symbols as belonging to the American Nazi party.

[Hawke]

Wullie and I were doing some surfn one day and that was one of the knives we saw. I spotted the one he has there on ebay and showed it to him. After he got it, he pointed out the nail pull even matches at an unusual place on the blade. I personally think he has a real deal and that it is a DJ knife. Too many things match and I think the shield is one of the most tell-tale signs. The knife was in a lot buy. The tie of that shield with the Hitler regime makes me think no one else would use it. Time will tell. Thats site Wullie posted will get him in touch with someone who knows more. We didnt expect it the have the tang it does tho. The other Youth knives were Rostifer or Klass I think. German made would be the most obvious maker. Still too many things match to me. Looking forward to Wullie solving the mystery there.

Bets on a positive ID?
Ahhh Wullie cant find nut'n LOL

[Miller Bro's]

SEE BELOW FOR DESCRIPTION



N008458 DJ POCKET KNIFE. (Messer) A 3 13/16" long, 7/16" thick and approximately 5/8" wide pocket knife, to either of whose sides are inlaid camouflage-like patterns in green and brown, and to one side of which is also inlaid an alloy, DJ "Sigrune." The DJ, "Deutsches Jungvolk" (German Young-people), was the younger branch of the HJ, "Hitler Jugend" (Hitler Youth) - for boys from 10 to 14 years old. From one end of the knife folds out a 1 1/8" long awl, while from its other end extends a 2 5/8" long knife, as well as a knife-like implement which has broken 1 1/4" along its length. The blades to all of them appear to have been heavily sharpened, and all have light surface spotting to them. The exterior faces of the knife exhibit only light surface scratching.

GRADE ***3/4 PRICE $210.00

To Order this item, please use one of the two e-mail addresses below to contact us. Please make sure to quote the item number in your e-mail

MILITARIA WANTED! If you have items for sale, please contact us. We specialize in selling single pieces and entire collections. Over 3 decades in the business and we do all the work for you. Get the best return for your investment.

-E-Mail Address pawmac@nbnet.nb.ca Or guild@nb.aibn.com

To return to the main page please CLICK below

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Whoever wrote that description obviously does not know much about pocketknives. That has to be the worst re-pinning job I have ever seen on an old knife. They rate the condition as 3 3/4 stars out of 4! That knife rates a 1/2 star at best.

I have yet to see an official "Nazi" issued pocket knife. I have seen that shield on utica knives before, I may have one somewhere. I don`t think it has anything to do with the Nazi party.

[RobesonsRme.com]

I also have seen that zig-zag shield on multiple patterns of Utica Cutlery Co. knives. I would almost bet that Mike Losicco owns more than one of them.

Anybody have a Utica Cutlery Co. catalog or catalog reprint from that time frame?

I'm not saying that Utica didn't make some knives for someone associated with the American Nazi Party. I have no idea. I certainly hope they did not, especially since they were located on "NOYES" Street in Utica.

But, I know they used that shield on several different patterns of knives with several different handle materials, including genuine bone, and multi-colored celluloids.

Nazi memorabilia sells well. Associating such a Utica with the Nazi's would increase its market value. We see those ridiculous Jim Parker Nazi/Hitler folders and those stupid cantilever folding brass contraption "commando" knives on Ebay all the time. Hardly anybody describes them as something other than authentic Nazi knives. BS to the nth degree.

Willie's knife is a nice old Utica knife. Not-a-Nazi!

Charlie Noyes

[Owd Wullie]

This is exactly why I posted this knife like I did.

If some lover of all things Narzi wants to own that knife, they're welcome to it.

However, I do not want to fall into the same BS trap or perpetuate the BS if indeed it is not so.

Here are the e-mails I've been exchanging with "Tom" at that site. Read from the bottom up.

Hi Willie.

Thank you for the reply.

No we do not have any provenance for the knife we have.

If we did it would be mentioned in the description.

Thank you for the offer but we sell items on consignment for collectors.

If you have items that you wish to sell though us please send an e-mail with "Att Peter or Stacy" in the subject line and they will give you the information you need.

Warmest Regards.

Tom.


----- Original Message -----
From: Willie
To: Collector's Guild
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: Pocket knife question

Hi Tom,

I'm not interested in that one. However, I have one in much nicer condition. Perhaps you would be interested in mine.
http://s658.photobucket.com/albums/uu30 ... G_1944.jpg
http://s658.photobucket.com/albums/uu30 ... G_1945.jpg
http://s658.photobucket.com/albums/uu30 ... G_1941.jpg

This knife has the same manufacturer as yours. Unlike yours, it has no broken blades, no home made pin in the front bolster and no punch. Mine does have a piece of the back scale missing. Even though mine has seen the wrong side of a grinding wheel, there is pretty all the blades left.

Both knives were made by UTICA CUTLERY, a New York firm. The tang stamp is very clear on my knife.

I do find that unusual, however they could have been contracted in the 30's to make those knives. It puzzles me that all the rest of the knives were made in Germany by the old German houses.

Is there any provenance for your knife? There is none for mine.

Sincerely,
Willie

Collector's Guild wrote:
> Hi Willie.
>
> Thank you for the e-mail.
>
> If there was a stamp it has been worn off.
>
> Let me know if you are interested in it.
>
> Warmest Regards.
>
> Tom.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Willie
> To: pawmac@nbnet.nb.ca ; guild@nb.aibn.com
> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 11:08 PM
> Subject: Pocket knife question
>
> Hi,
> I was admiring the "DJ" pocket knife you have listed.
>
> http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Politica ... 08458.html
>
> The picture does not have enough detail to view the tang stamp that should be on the main blade. Would it be possible for you tell me what the tang stamp is?
>
> Sincerely,
> Willie

[Hawke]

Seems you know more about it than they do Wullie.

[WelderBob]

Wullie, Your shield is pictured in Parker & Voyles offical price guide 1981...page 36.
I'm sure the munbers by the shields are reference to more info, but it's not in this book.

Bob

[Owd Wullie]

Thanks Bob. That is interesting.

Seems you know more about it than they do Wullie.

Heck Andy, ALL I know for sure is that I got a hard head and stinkin butt.

I think I contact Stacy or Peter and see exactly what they have to say about this.

[RobesonsRme.com]

Actually, those shields and their numbers in the 1981 price guide were an attempt to assign a designator to each common shield shape known at the time.

In the Cindy and Jim Taylor knife sales lists that I offered up this past week, they used the designators pretty religiously. Cindy's description of a particular knife might say, "3 3/8" regular jack with gorgeous green bone handles and an S-136 shield".

Of course, in order to decipher those descriptions, one needs a copy of the 1981 book, or a later edition that also contained the shields section.

Charlie Noyes

[Owd Wullie]

Well, I found a forum dedicated primarily to WWII German stuff. It's a really nice forum with a lot of interesting sub forums.
http://warrelics.eu/forum/

I posted the pics of the knife and someone came along and stated that pocket knives were NOT a part of the uniform or equipment of either the DJ or the HJ.

Conclusion over there is the same as it is here. Neither my knife or the one listed as such are anything other than neat old pocket knives with an interesting shield.

If you have any interest in militaria, I recommend that site. They discuss pretty much all aspects of that field and have some great posts.

It was fun. Thanks for all the input.
W

[Owd Wullie]

They're coming out of the woodworks!!
Another UTICA Narzi wannabe!!

[rst]

I bought a similar knife at a flea market. The scales are a blend of mostly red plastic with other colors marbled in. I has the single rune. The mfg. info was filed off with only a very faint utica ny remaining. I don't know the proper term for the shape, but it is semetrical, not having the bends the one you have pictured does. It is in rough shape as far as the blades go. Pitted, with the 2 smaller blades broken. As Germany was not known for its folders, it makes sense to me that they placed orders for these before WWII.

[rst]

Correction to comments. It is the same shape. I started thinking about it and took another look. Sorry

[Remer]

I would be interested in buying any of them for sale
rickremer@hotmail.com