Another thread about pin spinners.

Diligence · Post by **Diligence** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:52 pm

Hmm - so I tried to make myself a pin spinner like the one shown in Kelley's Pocketknife Repair manual (page 18 ), but all it did was slip'n slide around on the pin. Didn't really do much except mash it up a bit.

Now, I know Orvet has shown us his homemade spinner before, but has anybody seen or used one like Mr. Kelley indicated?

Cheers,
D

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:05 pm

hey d, are you using the spinner in a drill press?

Diligence · Post by **Diligence** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:19 pm

Yes, I chucked the spinner and put the lower end of the pin onto the drill table. I could exert quite a bit of pressure, but it didn't seem to do much. I compared my efforts to numerous other spring pivot pins, none looked like mine.

I shaped the spinner just like on page 18 of the book, kind of like a saddle. The curvature of the saddle matched the domed spring pins on several of my knives.

I think I have the shape wrong.

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:22 pm

you need a pin sized base for the bottom as well. all pressure must be translated to the pin.

Duffy · Post by **Duffy** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:58 pm

jonet143 wrote:you need a pin sized base for the bottom as well. all pressure must be translated to the pin.

Should the pin sized bottom base spin with the pin or the pin would spin in the base, Johnnie?

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:26 pm

the base pin stays stationary. mine is cup shaped to keep the pin centered.

Diligence · Post by **Diligence** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:27 am

Johnnie...do you rely solely on the the "spun pin" to keep itself in place? Or, do you peen first, then spin for a nice dome?

From reading my book, it sounds like the spring pivot pin is solely spun to hold itself in place.

Have you had success with that?

I'll try again tonight (maybe) with a bottom pin support.

D

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:35 am

if done properly, the pin will dome and tighten against the handles and look real good. i have had success but.......i still prefer to peen and file by hand. if i had a production schedule

it would save time.

muskrat man · Post by **muskrat man** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:37 am

I'll be watching this thread, still have not gitten the spinning thing worked out

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:42 am

take several backsprings and use the spinner to secure. without handle material to worry about you can better judge the pressure required to dome the pin material. in other words practice on something you can take apart and try again. you will get a feel for how much pin to leave exposed.

Diligence · Post by **Diligence** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:29 am

Johnnie & MM,

I'll have to play with the spinner and the bare springs....but first, I thought I'd revamp the pin spinner itself so that it wouldn't float around.

I drilled a small hole, maybe a 1/64 deep, that is 3/32 diameter, into the center, bottom of the saddle I created.

Tried the spinner again, and now it seems to work a bit, but the pin isn't domed. Instead, it's shaped just like the bottom of the drill bit, kind of a "cone".

So, looks like I might be on the right track. Just need to tweak it I suppose....or break down and buy a commercial spinner.

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:13 am

what ever shape the spinner is will determine head shape. the saddle only needs enough indention to hold the pin from slipping off. i use a nail set slightly modified. use a dremmel and bowl shape your spinner.

Diligence · Post by **Diligence** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:29 am

So your spinner is a "bowl" not a "saddle"....I'll form the bowl with a dremel ball bit....

Thanks,
Jaye

Diligence · Post by **Diligence** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:28 pm

Johnnie - one question for you. When you are done spinning a 3/32" pin, what approximate diameter is the dome? (ie how much does the spinner expand the head?)

*****************
Experiment:

Started from scratch again last night to manufacture my own spinner.

Broke off a 2" length of 1/4" round file (not case hardened) and annealed it with a torch.

Drilled a very short 3/32" hole into center of end, just to act as a guide for the ball.

Used a ball bit for a dremel, chucked in my drill press to create a nice bowl about 1/8" deep.

Tried that on some NS 3/32" pins. The bowl didn't seem to dome the pins, it did deform them, but didn't really dome them that well.

Used a 3/16" round file to cut a very minor saddle shape into the end of the spinner. The depth of the saddle reached to half the depth of the bowl created by the ball bit. The width of the saddle was just less than the diameter of the rod (ie less than 1/4")

Trial One - with about 1/16" of the pin sticking up from where I wanted the dome to end up. I created a short bevel on the top of the pin before I spun it.
- didn't do much except create a very small dome, less than the diameter of the pin -------cut the saddle deeper, to the bottom of the bowl created by the ball bit.
- seemed to dome the pins pretty well, but the final dome diameter was still quite small. Maybe only 1/32" + a bit to the starting diameter of the pin but I think it will work okay to retain the pin.

Trial Two - same amount of pin sticking up, but did not bevel the top. Got basically the same result.

I used my drill press, with A LOT OF PRESSURE, running at 1100 RPM. Had the same results with NS or Brass. All 3/32" diameter pins.

After spinning I hit the pins with my quasi-buffer (wheel mounted sideways in the drill press) and the finish was very good looking. Nice and round, and I don't think I could crack a scale using this method. Compared to a bunch of factory domes, this home made method would pass, but the dome diameter is still a bit smaller.

Took the finished spinner, gave it a quick heat and water quench to get some sort of hardness out of it.

Experiment over for now. I'll give it a try and see what it looks like on a knife.

Thanks,
D

orvet · Post by **orvet** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:13 am

D,
You might try chucking the pin stock in your drill press chuck & hold the spinner stationary in a drill press vise. That works for me. I use a large set screw for a spinner. Remember, you want the head to be a lot bigger than the pin diameter.

Dale

Diligence · Post by **Diligence** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:44 pm

Dale - I was using the spinner to dome the spring pin. I'm trying to avoid peening that pin as I seem to crack scales quite often.

I may spin a dome on one side of the pin, insert it, then spin the other side when it's installed.

What is the diameter of the dome that is created by your home made spinners (the one's you posted the photos of)?

Cheers,
Jaye

orvet · Post by **orvet** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:52 am

I don't remember which one I posted.

I do use different size spinners for different diameter pin stock.
I have not been able to get large heads like you see on production knives.

For me pin spinning is not an exact science. Sometimes I get bigger heads than other times. I usually finish them by peening.

If you are having trouble splitting the scakes when you peen, switch to a lighter hammer. That worked for me. I have a tiny ball peen hammer that can't be more than 2 oz. Try a lighter hammer or much lighter taps. The idea is to mushroom out the very end of the pin, not to swell the entire length of pin. Since going to lighter hammer &/or lighter taps, I haven’t had trouble breaking the bone.

Good luck,
Dale

CAMCO · Post by **CAMCO** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:00 pm

I have two types of spinners that I use for pins: #1 is the spinners that were used at the Camillus factory and #2 spinners were made by Mr. Eugene Blankenship (The Knife Doctor) based on Adrian Harris' design.

I normally use nickel silver pins and I spin the pins in a drill press. I have a base with a rounded stud that supports the knife that I got from the Camillus factory.

Tom Liggett, who worked for Camillus for 38 years has been teaching me about knife repair. Tom is mentioned in Frank Trzaska's article in KNIFE WORLD and the repairs were done in my shop.

When we repair some more knives I will take some photos and ask Phil (Gr8Scout) to post them.

Tom Williams

orvet · Post by **orvet** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:20 pm

Tom,
Would you be so good as to take some pics of your spinners & the base you use also and post them as well?

I think they would be very helpful.

Thanks,
Dale

Diligence · Post by **Diligence** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:19 pm

Tom,

Excellent - photos would be most useful.

Dale,

I'm already using a small ball peen, but I'll find a smaller one....must be putting too much muscle into them.

When you are peening bolsters and/or pivot pins, how much bevel do you put on the hole?....and how? I just use a drill bit spun by hand to bevel, but I think I'm making them too wide as sometimes the pins show very clearly, when they shouldn't show at all.

Jaye

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:26 pm

adrian harris says drill pin hole .001 oversize
countersink .010
taper to .015 depth.

Diligence · Post by **Diligence** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:30 pm

Most excellent - real numbers to apply.

Thanks!

CAMCO · Post by **CAMCO** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:28 pm

I will take some photos of the spinners and block. The tools that I use have only been used for nickel silver pins. I never tried spinning stainless steel pins and I have been told this is very difficult to do.

Tom Williams

orvet · Post by **orvet** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:37 pm

Tom Williams (CAMCO) asked me to post some pictures he took of his head spinning tools.
The threaded spinner were made by Mr. Eugene Blankenship for Tom. - pics 1-3
The smooth spinner is the type used in the Camillus factory. - pic 4
The steel block is used to support the knife and the other end of the pin in a drill press. Note that there are two size reliefs for different size heads on the pins. - pics 6& 7
Two types pins are shown: #1-double pointed and #2 with a preformed head. - pic 8

I lightened the pictures in PhotoShop for better detail.
I hope they post in correct order.
-Dale

Edit- OK I have no idea why, but the the pics did not post in the order I entered them. Just match them up by the number at the top of each picture.
-DV

CAMCO · Post by **CAMCO** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:50 pm

Dale,
Thank you for posting the photos. The tools that I use to spin pins work very well. I take my time to get the heads to be the same size. I took a photo of the pins that come with a preformed head, but I prefer to use the pins that are pointed on both ends. It is easier to spin both heads and make them uniform.
The tools are quite simple in design and easy to duplicate.
Tom Williams