Wharncliffe Knives

[jerryd6818]

I just noticed I never did post my picture of the little GEC Coyote and the GEC Beavertail Improved Trapper in this thread. (Thank you so very much Monkey Man)

[QTCut5]

Although these aren't traditional Wharncliffe patterns, since others are posting photos of knives with Wharncliffe blades, I thought I might as well follow suit because it's practically impossible to ever tire of looking at such a cool blade regardless of the frame it's attached to.

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

Some of the GEC Wharncliffe blades are not a true Wharncliffe. The original Wharncliffe is described as a "stout" blade, i.e. thick blade stock and not a long skinny blade. The Case Seahorse whittler is a good example of a true Wharncliffe blade.
kj

[Dinadan]

Jerry, those GECs are nice. I especially like the Coyote!

Beautiful knives, Q

Although these aren't traditional Wharncliffe patterns, since others are posting photos of knives with Wharncliffe blades, I thought I might as well follow suit -snip-.

~Q~

That is an interesting point, Q. When this thread first started I thought it was going to be more about pattern, or body shape. The wharncliffe pattern is my favorite, though I have seen it referred to as tapered serpentine, and these days I have seen any knife with the wharncliffe body referred to as a seahorse knife.

I have not seen a lot of information about the body pattern on this board or anywhere else. Here is a photo of Catalog from 1930 (I think) with a list of patterns by Keen Kutter. Wharncliffe is on the bottom row. The photo should enlarge enough to read the text.

It is also interesting how the spelling has changed over the decades. These two adds make it clear that the pattern is wharncliffe as opposed to the blades.
The first photo is from a 1921 catalog (I think, I was not as meticulous as I should have been when I saved these images). The second I do not know the date on.

Whorncliffe.jpg (24.19 KiB) Viewed 3940 times

[LongBlade]

Nice knives all

Great points about the wharncliffe Mel.... when I first read about these I understand it the same - wharncliffe not only referred to the blade shape but also refers to the serpentine frame which indeed may not even have a wharncliffe blade... I sort of alluded to that in my first paragraph in the thread but was not clear... and KJ - indeed the wharncliffe blade was originally designed to be a heavy stout blade that changed not necessarily in overall silhouette but no doubt in stoutness/thickness depending upon maker over the years... just my 2 cents...

I was hoping that folks would post all types when I started the thread

[jerryd6818]

When this thread first started I thought it was going to be more about pattern, or body shape.

Yeah, this thread started wobbling on it's trucks on the first page and shortly it had veered off onto a trunk line to nowhere. Even though I knew better, it was partially my fault. You have a pretty good start at getting it back on track. Since I helped get it off track, let me see if I can help get it back on.

First off, can we agree that from a purist point of view, the Wharncliffe (current spelling) pattern refers to the shape of the knife frame and could have any number of blades and/or blade profiles installed?? Yes? No? Maybe?

Edit: Typing while you were Lee.

[Dinadan]

Longblade - referring back to your first post in this topic, here one that pretty well has the combination of the high arched blade shape and serpentine frame that you like.

[Dinadan]

When this thread first started I thought it was going to be more about pattern, or body shape.

Yeah, this thread started wobbling on it's trucks on the first page and shortly it had veered off onto a trunk line to nowhere. Even though I knew better, it was partially my fault. You have a pretty good start at getting it back on track. Since I helped get it off track, let me see if I can help get it back on.

First off, can we agree that from a purist point of view, the Wharncliffe (current spelling) pattern refers to the shape of the knife frame and could have any number of blades and/or blade profiles installed?? Yes? No? Maybe?

Edit: Typing while you were Lee.

Jerry, we cross posted too. I am in agreement that the Wharncliffe (current spelling) pattern refers to the shape of the knife frame and could have any number of blades and/or blade profiles installed. I do think that this is a situation where many if not most folks are so used to thinking of wharncliffe as a blade pattern that it may be a losing battle to reestablish it as a body pattern. Worth trying though!!

[kootenay joe]

The understanding of Wharncliffe depends on whether you get your information from knife 'history' books (e.g. LG4 by BRL), or from knife company marketing, e.g. reading GEC website.
Collecting old knives is more meaningful when you know some of the history of the knife patterns and knife companies, it's what i think of as the 'academic' side of knife collecting.
kj

[wlf]

Agree completely,otherwise this thread has no identity. Thanks Mel,Lee, and Jerry.

Not meant to disparage any nice knives with wharncliffe blades,but lets see wharncliffe frames, even if they don't have "whorncliffe" blades.

[Ivoryman]

All right, seems we've offended the purists without intent with just Wharncliffe blades. Got it. I'm out. Won't intrude on the narrow parameters anymore with my offerings. Thought it was inclusive, not exclusive but I've been scolded before for posting the wrong knives on threads and stepping on toes. My mistake. Par for the course.

[QTCut5]

Don't worry about it, IM...way back in OCT 2014 I started a thread in the "Knife Trading" forum called Got Wharncliffe Folders? which was intended to seek out collectors willing to trade knives with Wharnclffe BLADES but which quickly morphed into a "Show off your knives with wharncliffe blades" thread that had nothing to do with trading, as was my original intent. Oh well...I still enjoyed looking at all the beautiful Wharncliffe BLADES even though I received very few trade offers.

Here's the thread...on which you may feel completely free to include any wharncliffe BLADE knives you wish, regardless of the frame pattern or whether you have any desire to trade them (although I am still interested in swapping for knives with Wharncliffe BLADES)..

http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... 33&t=43018

And, by the way, I would be interested to know what the history buffs and so-called "purists," feel is the correct/acceptable orthographic syntax when writing the word "wharncliffe." Must it always be capitalized since, according to legend, it was ostensibly derived from a proper noun, i.e., a person's name; or, is it considered acceptable to depict it using a lower-case "w"? You may have noticed that I have written it both ways in this post; but, nevertheless, I sure would hate to offend any "purists" with my ignorance on this detail.

~Q~

[Dinadan]

I think we are having a discussion, not pointing fingers at offending posters. I was trying to make the point that wharncliffe refers to a blade pattern and to a body pattern. If one or the other was specified in the topic heading, then going off topic might be mildly annoying to others, but it was not specified.

Lyle, those are some fine wharncliffes you posted! Here is another of mine.

[kootenay joe]

I see no need to feel discouraged by any of this. The intention of posters is i believe to share what they know with the hope of learning from each other. Knife knowledge is rife with terminology whose meaning varies with geography, and here we come together from all over the place.
And i don't mind threads weaving around rather than staying a narrow course because you never know when you will come across a new 'pearl of knife info' or a picture of a knife that speaks to you.
If you make a post with the intent of adding to a thread then that is all that is required as far as i can see. If someone disagrees with your post it is not personal, just they see things differently, so "Post On Ye Merry Men".
kj

[jerryd6818]

All right, seems we've offended the purists without intent with just Wharncliffe blades. Got it. I'm out. Won't intrude on the narrow parameters anymore with my offerings. Thought it was inclusive, not exclusive but I've been scolded before for posting the wrong knives on threads and stepping on toes. My mistake. Par for the course.

I-Man. You are NOT being scolded. Now if someone had said, "You just wait 'til your daddy get's home" now that's a horse of a different color. Simply trying to discern the intent of the OP and nudge this thread back on topic. (although after reviewing the posts, it really hasn't strayed that far).

[QTCut5]

When I started collecting knives in earnest, I thought that "Wharncliffe" was the name assigned to a specific blade profile in order to distinguish it from other blade geometries such as clip, drop, spear, spey, sheepfoot, hawkbill, coping, etc. After doing research on "Wharncliffe" (much of which has been generously made available here on AAPK) I learned that, although the term may have been originally attached to a particular frame style (which today is often also called a "seahorse"), the modern/current use of the term "wharncliffe" refers as much to an asymmetrical, i.e., different sized top and bottom bolsters, serpentine frame style as well as to a specific blade profile--both interpretations are used interchangeably and, I believe, correctly; neither has exclusive "rights" to the term, although one may pre-date the other chronologically. Consequently, anyone who refers to a "wharncliffe," "Wharncliffe," "worncliff," "whorncliff," or any other similar orthographic derivation of the word, should expressly specify whether they are referring to the frame style or the blade profile...but only IF it's important to make such a distinction. Likewise, no one need feel "excluded," offended or "scolded" for applying his own interpretation of the term, unless a specific definition has been stated for whatever purpose, since, obviously, the word "Wharncliffe" has multiple, generally accepted connotations.

~Q~

[LongBlade]

Well since I was the OP for this thread IMHO I haven't seen any posts truly off base for this thread (including yours I-Man and I know I appreciated your knife posts as noted back a few pages)... I didn't mean to open any cans of worms (as I did when I started a thread on Peanut Jacks awhile back which I never truly never understood by definition) - and that thread eventually taught me alot and now anyone who finds it will know that it is all definition & terminology - and that is interesting to me! Perhaps abit reminiscent here in terms of definition... Defintion or better yet terminology or "knife slang" which it truly is in some cases is interesting...

Unfortunately I buried this quote under my photos at the bottom in the OP "Be great to see others post their favorite Wharncliffe knives - any other info etc – any style – old and new knives welcome " - It is my fault and I truly should have mentioned blades or frames or both etc etc.. even when I alluded to blades and or frames being wharncliffes in trying to relay some background...

So far there have been old & new knives - blades & frames, blades and now even knife frames (thanks for sharing those Lyle!)... and some good discussion - personally I had never seen the other spellings of wharncliffe... those who know my posts understand my appreciation for the historical aspects as I know many do but not all need to like the history or care - some just like knives... thats cool and I respect that as well!!

Hope this thread keeps on showing and discussing all aspects... personally I can't get enough looking at those blades and/or frames and reading related info

[Ivoryman]

I didn't know Wharncliffe was a pattern only. I thought it was a blade shape/design. I'm a knife lover not an expert. I also thought some comments seemed to suggest a desire to have this thread limited to the patterns only, not any knife with a Wharn blade. My mistake. I apologize if I misinterpreted anyone's comments. Also appreciate those who tried to clear up anything I may have misconstrued. Thanks.

[bighomer]

Iman, My old grandpappy called what we call "whittlers" carpenters knives, a jack knife was any knife that the blades were on the same end, a canoe was a butterbean so on so forth. All he had to learn what knives were called was a few old catalogs and word of mouth. There has sure been some beautiful knives posted on this wharncliffe site, blade or pattern be hanged,just keep posting for my viewing pleasure. Het in advance.

[Dinadan]

I didn't know Wharncliffe was a pattern only. I thought it was a blade shape/design. -snip-

Ivoryman - at some point I figured that there had to be a name for the body shape of these knives. When I posted a question about what they were called, a knowledgeable poster responded that they were called wharncliffes. I thought the gentleman had misconstrued my question and was talking about the blades. Later I realized he had answered my question but I misconstrued the answer. So trust me, you are not the first to be a bit mystified by knife terminology.

Here is a little Schrade that might be truly termed a worncliffe.

[wlf]

I'm not sure that the spelling ( worncliffe ) was not just a mistake in those cuts shown (the Enderes and Western ).

I believe both might have come from the Utica factory ,and it seems strange both were spelled as such. Be nice to see a 1921 Utica cut,as to how it was spelled there.

And it could be that is just how some spelled it??

By the way,the internet is a limited means of communication,meanings get misconstrued easily,and these misunderstandings would probably never have occurred if we were all sitting around a table discussing knives. I try to never disparage anyone,but you can't always be literate or succinct enough to get across your points to that effect.

[Dinadan]

Lyle - I think you are right that worncliffe was just a mistake by someone spelling an unfamiliar word. Probably a word that was not in most dictionaries, too. I was just trying to make a wordplay on the worn condition of my knife.

[kootenay joe]

Bernard Levine defines "Wharncliffe Knife" as a pen knife with a Wharncliffe frame and a Wharncliffe master blade.
Here are 2 pearl Wharncliffe knives:
2 7/8" Water-Ville Cutlery Co. (buffed)
3 1/2" by Joel Chamblin

And a 3" Swell Center Serpentine Whittler with horn handles and a Wharncliffe master blade; Cuno Kohl Solingen (actually in the SCS pattern as shown by Levine, the larger master end curves downward, where in this knife it curves upward. Bernard says that his book names American & British patterns and that European patterns differ so the pattern names cannot always be applied if you are a 'purist')
kj

[bighomer]

KJ those shore are purty.

[QTCut5]

So, would the two Queen #46s (at bottom of photo) be considered "Wharncliffe" knives? I've always considered them to be Queen's version of the Case Mini-Copperhead.

~Q~