Rare Relics

upnorth · Post by **upnorth** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:22 pm

Thanks for the "simmons" pics to those who posted them.
We have a nice string of rare knives going on here!
Another nice HJ, LT. I saved a copy. You posted another Nap HJ a while back, and wonder if you still have the pic of that one?

upnorth · Post by **upnorth** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:42 pm

LT's post above reminded me of this knife from my Empire collection.
Sure is a near copy of the Keen: or vise versa??
Empire made knives marked Keen Kutter. I wonder which? when? why??? The usual questions that come up!

I copied the KeenKutter cut for comparison.

lt632ret · Post by **lt632ret** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:11 am

I believe it is the same one( HJ). I have had 2 D&S knives I have not been able to find any info and I have tried. I sold one of the D&S ( I was made an offer I could not refuse ). I believe it was a short lived company like Orange which sprang up after the Walden or NYK demise. Dave Swindens dad was involved with the Orange company which made small gents knives. Since the handle material is the same as the Orange I thought the D&S might have been Dunstan and Swinden but dave says his dad was not affialiated with D&S. So it remains another ? for a while anyway. The orange knives were made in a small shack type building just down the street from where Dave lived and up the street from where years later I lived. I have been in that empty old building which still exists. Simmons by itself pre dates the Keen but not by much. both were early but Simmons goes back to the late 1860tys. Hey EA you left with a Schrade hat on but came in with an Alaska Mt Mckinley I will try to remember to bring it Sat when we check out the next possible building for the museum. Again what I was trying to do in the post ( perhapes badly ) was show the eventual link of evolution of this style and how they changed. They are not the same but are related. The 1924 pic I believe is a similar knife however that same style continued after that but was a contract by Schrade. The ebony was typical of that period but you could be correct in that it is earlier . Early Simmons and KK were contracts as well, Napanoch being just one of the early suppliers. I have located someone who can give us the exact answer however he is not talking and has not talked for some time. I doubt if he will however here is his pic.

ea42 · Post by **ea42** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:14 am

That's some interesting info on Dave Swinden's dad LT. I didn't realize the cutlery expertise went on for multiple generations. Can you believe I didn't even realize I had a different hat on until I took it off my head and hung it on the door? i can't imagine what I'll be like in another 20 years

It seems like trying to piece together all of Keen Kutter's affiliations could become a lifetime endevour. I once saw a photo of a Simmons catalog that was something like 1500 pages, maybe more. If I find the photo I'l post it. Just to give you an idea of the scope of knives OTHER than Keen Kutter that were offered by this company as house brands, here's a little list care of Alvin Sellens-
A.W. Bradshaw and Bradshaw-200 patterns
Chip-A-Way - 300 patterns
E.W.Howard - 200 patterns
Hornet - 300 patterns
That is a beauty of a fish jack Charlie! Where have you been hiding that one? Here's a quite worn Keen Kutter for comparison.

stockman · Post by **stockman** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:03 am

[quote="ea42"]

Stockman, Simmons made two versions of that knife, the earlier had steel bolsters and the later had N/S. If you hold a small magnet, such as a fridge magnet to the bolsters, you should be able to determine which it is. The earlier knife was made between 1905 and 1916, the later was made between 1921 and 1929. I'm guessing you have the earlier due to the ebony handles. The odd thing is the Simmons stamp with the Keen Kutter cap. Generally the Keen Kutters were all stamped as such and i'm wondering of the Simmons stamp pre-dates the Keen Kutter one. LT, here's a shot of the Keen Kutter/Schrade contract knife sans OT pre-cursor. The one stockman has posted is somewhat fatter and stouter, with a strong rat tail (which is quite worn or polished off)
Eric

ea42 my knife is steel on the top bolster and nickel on the bottom where knife is marked Keen Kutter, also the rat tail is beautiful picture must be poor again thanks for all of the help and interest.

Stockman

upnorth · Post by **upnorth** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:25 am

Eric, the FJ came with a collection of 54 Empires I bought a couple of years ago. I assure you not all are in as good condition!!
I swear those fish jacks were made in the same factory! Eric, do your blades have half stops?? Mine do, even though the bolsters are round.

ea42 · Post by **ea42** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:10 am

stockman, In that case, yours is LIKELY a K1211, made from 1905-1916. Incidently, most all of the end caps and many of the bolsters from this period (pre-1920) were made of German silver. Sorry about that comment on the bolster, the lighting really hides the depth. Actually, the knife really is too far gone. Just send it out here and I'll see if I can find a home for it. The market's much better for those worn out things out here. (I've actually offered to do the same for Charlie's bad knives but he never takes me up on it

). Seriously it's an excellent piece stockman

Charlie, 54?!?!

Yes, it has half stops, measures 3 1/2 inches long. The only thing that really stands out is the different pin placement.

Eric

stockman · Post by **stockman** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:16 am

ea42 Thanks for your help

Stockman

knife7knut · Post by **knife7knut** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:07 am

And to further add to the confusion(?)here is one stamped,"Norvel-Shapleigh Hardware Co. St.Louis Mo." with the master blade stamped,"Norshap".And "GERMANY" on the rear of the tang!

Wonder who made THIS one?

Also enclosed is another rare relic:A George Woodhead Sheffield 2 blade jack.The only other Woodhead folding knife I have ever seen is a pruner that I bought years ago.It is also in bad shape but how many have you seen? He was basically famous for his bowies with the half horse half alligator pommel.

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:10 am

upnorth · Post by **upnorth** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:41 pm

That german-made fish looks like a close copy of the Empire and Schrade(?) made ones, Knifeknut. Clever those Germans!!
Nice old Sheffield relic, too!!

stockman · Post by **stockman** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:32 pm

Just to give you an idea of the scope of knives OTHER than Keen Kutter that were offered by this company as house brands, here's a little list care of Alvin Sellens-
A.W. Bradshaw and Bradshaw-200 patterns
Chip-A-Way - 300 patterns
E.W.Howard - 200 patterns
Hornet - 300 patterns

Here is a H.M. MEIRS CHIP-A-WAY c1854-1875 taken over byE.C. Simmons about 1890 pq 180 Goins' Enc. Can this be right? Seems a little old to me.

Stockman

W5RWU · Post by **W5RWU** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:17 am

you guys dont stop kept them coming!!

w5rwu

ea42 · Post by **ea42** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:42 am

Stockman,
Simmons sold the Chip-a-Ways from roughly 1897 to 1910. That's a nice example you have there.

Eric

upnorth · Post by **upnorth** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:59 am

Stockman, the knife looks right from here. A better pic would confirm it, but I can't see anything that would rule out 1890!!

stockman · Post by **stockman** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:55 am

stockman wrote:Just to give you an idea of the scope of knives OTHER than Keen Kutter that were offered by this company as house brands, here's a little list care of Alvin Sellens-
A.W. Bradshaw and Bradshaw-200 patterns
Chip-A-Way - 300 patterns
E.W.Howard - 200 patterns
Hornet - 300 patterns

Here is a H.M. MEIRS CHIP-A-WAY c1854-1875 taken over byE.C. Simmons about 1890 pq 180 Goins' Enc. Can this be right? Seems a little old to me.

Stockman

My question is when in 1890 Simmons aquired Chip-A-Way from H.M. Meirs did they use the H.M. Meirs tang stamp? My knife marked H.M. Meirs Chip-A-Way is it from the 1890's or c1854-1875

Stockman

ea42 · Post by **ea42** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:24 pm

Geez you got me on that stockman, aside from references to the Chipaway brand in Price's guide (Incidently he, and I believe Levine list it as a British Co. under Chipaway Cutlery Co), and Keen Kutter Pocket Knives, which mentions the above dates for the knives but not Meirs, yours is the first Meirs knife I've seen. I know that Simmons kept the Bradshaw tang, but then I'm not certain if that company was actually aquired as in the case of Meir or they just sold the knives as a house brand. They did make tremendous use of the Chipaway name, putting it on all kinds of tools and implements, just as they did with the Keen Kutter name. I've included a photo of an oil stone as an example. As far as the tang stamp, I have no idea. Does anyone here have a Chipaway knife with a Simmons stamp? I do seem to recall seeing a knife with a Chipaway etch on the blade recently, but I can't recall where

Eric

stockman · Post by **stockman** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:43 pm

ea42 Good information, nice stone Eric. The dates about this knife that I posted came from Goins' latest. The H.M. Meirs Chip-A-way stamp pg 180. This is club night we have a Keen Kutter expert in our club I will pick his brain.

Stockman

orvet · Post by **orvet** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:33 am

Outstanding stuff!

I got real busy & didn't make it to the forum yesterday. Two pages were added to this thread!

Keep the knives coming & keep the history coming LT!!!

Thanks,
Dale

Miller Bro's · Post by **Miller Bro's** » Wed May 27, 2009 11:15 pm

Here is a rare relic.

Tang stamped Fayetteville Knife Co. Goins says 1911, not much know about these. Made in Fayetteville N.Y.?

Anyone have any of these, you New york state knife collectors?

M.B.

BIGHEAD · Post by **BIGHEAD** » Thu May 28, 2009 3:13 am

Don't know anytin about it but I likes it

RobesonsRme.com · Post by **RobesonsRme.com** » Thu May 28, 2009 3:30 am

I'm reasonably sure that logo on the bolster reads "F K Co", but I cannot seem to see that regardless of how long I stare at it.
Charlie Noyes

knfmn · Post by **knfmn** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:07 pm

Here is a rare old knife. American Shear & knife Co......1853-1914

ratlesnake75 · Post by **ratlesnake75** » Thu Jul 01, 2010 5:09 am

Wow!!! Fantastic RARE knives here on AAPK---I confused now on the fish jacks(LOL)--Thx Mark

edgy46 · Post by **edgy46** » Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:28 am

Rare to me and surely a relic. John chatillon and sons 1900--1937 per Goins. Three inches long.

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