Schrade Walden 1194

[tongueriver]

I am thinking that may be a Utica for Taylor. Or a Camillus. Or even a genuine Schrade, but if it is a Schrade, it is from the last years and left over from a special run. The handles are very nice. Is it hollow-ground? Bear & Son made some trappers with hollow-ground blades for Taylor, but this does not look like a Bear to me.

[waggo71]

i do not think bear either...and it has different features than the camillus does. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it may actually be a real schrade.

[Shearer]

Here is a set I picked up Serial number 050.This set has engraved bolsters.I am not sure who made them.I am thinking Camillus but I cannot see pins throuht the bolsters.

[ea42]

picked up a couple trapper style recently, i know the 1194 is camillus made but i'm a fan of their work also so all is well. the other one has me scratching my head, there are no numbers anywhere, could i have stumbled upon a special order sw somehow? it looks like the real deal but no model makes me wonder. love the green bone handles, though.

I'm pretty sure that's a genuine Schrade, just not from the Walden era. Looks to be one of the cigar box classics from around 2002ish.

Eric

[Shearer]

i do not think bear either...and it has different features than the camillus does. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it may actually be a real schrade.

The set I posted earlier the knives are 3 13/16" closed the one in the cigar box is 4 1/8" closed on the cigar box is 2003.
Hope this helps
Grant

[waggo71]

that's a nice matched set, i agree appears to be camillus made, good quality. once i get a chance to look these over closely i will advise, thanks for input

[waggo71]

so here's an update---the camillus made 1194 is physically very similar in size and feel to an original sw 293. The other "unidentified" schrade is larger, but well made, and i am further convinced that it is not a bear (shown with bear made for taylor)...the jury is still out on exactly what it is...the idea was put forth that it could be a schrade made cigar classic or special order and at this point that seems as likely as anything else. i do not feel that it is from the pre-1973 era. any other insight greatly appreciated.

[Shearer]

I also have a wood handle trapper Schrade+USA LTD
The green handle trapper came out of a cigar box and I purchased it with a set of four serilized knives SS51-1
The larger knives to my knowledge was made by Schrade.The Cigar box is 2003 and Schrade closed in 2004

[waggo71]

this give creedence to the cigar box theory, mine looks identical to yours minus the shield. thanks for the pics and info.

[dweb1897]

I also have a wood handle trapper Schrade+USA LTD
The green handle trapper came out of a cigar box and I purchased it with a set of four serilized knives SS51-1
The larger knives to my knowledge was made by Schrade.The Cigar box is 2003 and Schrade closed in 2004

I have a Schrade Walden muskrat minus the shield with the same bone handles and a couple that Herman Williams re-handled with that bone. I asked him about it and the bone he uses came from the Schrade factory and is fairly uncommon. If you doubt the authenticity of those 4 knives with the green brown bone I would be happy to buy them from you. Just trying to do a good deed here..hate to see a man worry about his knives

[Shearer]

I also have a wood handle trapper Schrade+USA LTD
The green handle trapper came out of a cigar box and I purchased it with a set of four serilized knives SS51-1
The larger knives to my knowledge was made by Schrade.The Cigar box is 2003 and Schrade closed in 2004

I have a Schrade Walden muskrat minus the shield with the same bone handles and a couple that Herman Williams re-handled with that bone. I asked him about it and the bone he uses came from the Schrade factory and is fairly uncommon. If you doubt the authenticity of those 4 knives with the green brown bone I would be happy to buy them from you. Just trying to do a good deed here..hate to see a man worry about his knives

1.JPG

I am not worried about the knives I went out to buy them.Thanks for the offer.
I have collected a few american Taylor Schrade stamped knives made in the USA after the factory closed in 2004.
Camillus and GEC made.(Camillus did make some knives for Schrade before the factory closed in 2004 )
They say that Utica made some but I have not found any yet.

Grant

[dweb1897]

I also have a wood handle trapper Schrade+USA LTD
The green handle trapper came out of a cigar box and I purchased it with a set of four serilized knives SS51-1
The larger knives to my knowledge was made by Schrade.The Cigar box is 2003 and Schrade closed in 2004

I have a Schrade Walden muskrat minus the shield with the same bone handles and a couple that Herman Williams re-handled with that bone. I asked him about it and the bone he uses came from the Schrade factory and is fairly uncommon. If you doubt the authenticity of those 4 knives with the green brown bone I would be happy to buy them from you. Just trying to do a good deed here..hate to see a man worry about his knives

1.JPG

I am not worried about the knives I went out to buy them.Thanks for the offer.
I have collected a few american Taylor Schrade stamped knives made in the USA after the factory closed in 2004.
Camillus and GEC made.(Camillus did make some knives for Schrade before the factory closed in 2004 )
They say that Utica made some but I have not found any yet.

Grant

I have been told that Camillus and Schrade exchanged work quite often when one or the other was behind on a work order. No written contracts, just a handshake. There is so much to learn about Schrades knives. What a shame there weren't better records kept, or maybe any records.

If you happen on another set of those cigar box knives I would certainly be interested

[orvet]

I have been told that Camillus and Schrade exchanged work quite often when one or the other was behind on a work order. No written contracts, just a handshake. There is so much to learn about Schrades knives. What a shame there weren't better records kept, or maybe any records.

Here is some brief Schrade/Imperial/Camillus history highlights from my research notes:

1941- Albert Baer bought Ulster Knife Company in January 1941.

1947- Albert and Henry Baer bought Schrade Cut Co. & changed the name to Schrade Walden Cutlery Corp. It became a division of Imperial Knife as Mr. Baer had merged his Kingston Cutlery Co, Ulster Knife Co, & the newly purchased Schrade Cut Co with Imperial.

1947- Imperial Knife Associated Companies, (IKAC), was formed and all interests of the Baer, Fazzano & Mirando groups (Imperial) became subsidiaries of the new parent company.

1963- Albert Baer bought the remaining stock of Camillus Cutlery Company that was held by the Kastor family and the Wallace family, after the death of Alfred Kastor, the son of Adolph Kastor. Albert Baer owned Camillus separate from his holdings in Imperial Knife Associated Companies.

1983- Albert Baer continued to buy stock in Imperial. By 1983 he owned all the shares of Imperial and it becomes a privately held corporation.

From 1983 to his death Albert Baer owned Schrade, Camillus and Imperial. Henry Baer may have owned some of the stock as well, but the Baers were the sole owners of all three companies with Albert alone owning Camillus.
In my conversations with Tom Williams I learned that Camillus made a lot of knife parts for Schrade and even a lot of complete knives.
There was no need for contracts as both companies had the same owner.
Camillus was known as the company that made knives for other companies. They were often called "The Knife Makers Knife Maker."

While Camillus made a lot of knives and parts for Schrade according to Tom Williams; rarely, if ever, did Schrade make knives or parts for Camillus. I have seen a few Camco knives made in the Listowel Ireland Schrade/Imperial factory, but I have not seen or heard of any Camillus branded knives that were made in the Schrade New York factory. Mainly the knives & parts were made by Camillus for Schrade.

[Shearer]

I have been told that Camillus and Schrade exchanged work quite often when one or the other was behind on a work order. No written contracts, just a handshake. There is so much to learn about Schrades knives. What a shame there weren't better records kept, or maybe any records.

If you happen on another set of those cigar box knives I would certainly be interested[/quote]


I purchased the set a few years ago and I have not seen another set
I will keep a eye out for you.

Grant

[tongueriver]

I have been told that Camillus and Schrade exchanged work quite often when one or the other was behind on a work order. No written contracts, just a handshake. There is so much to learn about Schrades knives. What a shame there weren't better records kept, or maybe any records.

In my conversations with Tom Williams I learned that Camillus made a lot of knife parts for Schrade and even a lot of complete knives.
There was no need for contracts as both companies had the same owner.
Camillus was known as the company that made knives for other companies. They were often called "The Knife Makers Knife Maker."

While Camillus made a lot of knives and parts for Schrade according to Tom Williams; rarely, if ever, did Schrade make knives or parts for Camillus. I have seen a few Camco knives made in the Listowel Ireland Schrade/Imperial factory, but I have not seen or heard of any Camillus branded knives that were made in the Schrade New York factory. Mainly the knives & parts were made by Camillus for Schrade.

It is my understanding that some of the knives made for the Parker runs, like the 5 different 4 inch stockmans with different Revolutionary War heroes, with Schrade tang stamps, were actually made at Imperial.

[Shearer]

I have been told that Camillus and Schrade exchanged work quite often when one or the other was behind on a work order. No written contracts, just a handshake. There is so much to learn about Schrades knives. What a shame there weren't better records kept, or maybe any records.

In my conversations with Tom Williams I learned that Camillus made a lot of knife parts for Schrade and even a lot of complete knives.
There was no need for contracts as both companies had the same owner.
Camillus was known as the company that made knives for other companies. They were often called "The Knife Makers Knife Maker."

While Camillus made a lot of knives and parts for Schrade according to Tom Williams; rarely, if ever, did Schrade make knives or parts for Camillus. I have seen a few Camco knives made in the Listowel Ireland Schrade/Imperial factory, but I have not seen or heard of any Camillus branded knives that were made in the Schrade New York factory. Mainly the knives & parts were made by Camillus for Schrade.

It is my understanding that some of the knives made for the Parker runs, like the 5 different 4 inch stockmans with different Revolutionary War heroes, with Schrade tang stamps, were actually made at Imperial.

Is this the set you are talking about.
I ran a 45X microscope over the five knives and cannot find any bolster pins.

Grant

[tongueriver]

That is the set I was talking about. Apparently I was led astray, and by good authority, as well. The only explanation which I can give is that possibly the two plants collaborated in some way. The swedge grind on the master clip blades on those knives, for instance, is not reminiscent of Schrade's usual production. Quien Sabe?!

[ea42]

That was a full on Imperial production.

A. Don't ALWAYS assume that since you don't see bolster pins the knife was automatically made at Schrade. Imperial was using skeleton construction LONG before the Swinden method was adopted.

B. Imperial had HUGE production capacity, while at the same time Schrade was struggling just to meet demand of its open stock products. Don't forget that this was the period in time where they had just switched everything over to "Schrade" from Schrade Walden <----fixed , and there where a lot of changes that had to be implemented.

C. They were the same company, Imperial Knife Associated Companies. Parts, assembly, heat treat, etc. were carried out in both places for the same items, which tended to get very costly. This is why they eventually consolidated into one building.

Eric

[Shearer]

[quote="ea42"]That was a full on Imperial production.

A. Don't ALWAYS assume that since you don't see bolster pins the knife was automatically made at Schrade. Imperial was using skeleton construction LONG before the Swinden method was adopted.



B. Imperial had HUGE production capacity, while at the same time Schrade Walden was struggling just to meet demand of its open stock products. Don't forget that this was the period in time where they had just switched everything over to "Schrade Walden" from Schrade Cut. Co, and there where a lot of changes that had to be implemented.


C. They were the same company, Imperial Knife Associated Companies. Parts, assembly, heat treat, etc. were carried out in both places for the same items, which tended to get very costly. This is why they eventually consolidated into one building.



A. Imperial did cover the bolster pins with metal bolster with a metal tab that folded over on the end.It was not the same swindon system used by Schrade ( 1960> ) in their part of Imperial.

B. Weren't the knives in question made in 1975 after they dropped the Walden of the name?

C.I would say the different division of Imperial made parts for each other .It's just good business.also Camillus made blades for Schrade( Imperial )

I would be interested if you could tell me if all orders for the different division of Imperial have Imperial letter heads or had letter heads from each division.(Ulster, Schrade,Imperial, etc )

Grant

[ea42]

Grant, Oops, I meant to say Schrade-Walden to Schrade. I'll make to correction above to avoid confusion.

Imperial used the foldover tab for their jackmasters, etc, but they also used standard skeleton construction as well as the swinden method, which is how they made those American Eagle knives, as well as the Thomas Jefferson and Buffalo Bill knives.

As far as the invoices, I think it was a matter of accounting as to which ones they used. The particular example that I showed pertained to replacement knives that were sent out from Providence. Nick Fazzano was VP at Imperial, Julian Raper was production manager at the time. The inter-office letters were from Imperial in Providence, as was all of the paperwork I posted. Bob Ernst was from Ellenville.

Here are a few from the Patrick Henry knife, which I believe was the first in the series. You'll note that, as with all new projects, there were a host of initial problems. There are invoices to suppliers of material: Henry Evers made the tang stamps, Crown plastics did the delrin covers, Providence Emblem did shields. There's also the green production sheet that showed daily totals:

[Shearer]

Grant, Oops, I meant to say Schrade-Walden to Schrade. I'll make to correction above to avoid confusion.

Imperial used the foldover tab for their jackmasters, etc, but they also used standard skeleton construction as well as the swinden method, which is how they made those American Eagle knives, as well as the Thomas Jefferson and Buffalo Bill knives.

As far as the invoices, I think it was a matter of accounting as to which ones they used. The particular example that I showed pertained to replacement knives that were sent out from Providence. Nick Fazzano was VP at Imperial, Julian Raper was production manager at the time. The inter-office letters were from Imperial in Providence, as was all of the paperwork I posted. Bob Ernst was from Ellenville.

Here are a few from the Patrick Henry knife, which I believe was the first in the series. You'll note that, as with all new projects, there were a host of initial problems. There are invoices to suppliers of material: Henry Evers made the tang stamps, Crown plastics did the delrin covers, Providence Emblem did shields. There's also the green production sheet that showed daily totals:

Thanks for the information
We all wished Imperial kept better record .It's like putting a jigsaw puzzle together with a few pieces missing.
I am glad you have some records to keep for the future.

Grant

[ea42]

No problem Grant, have a great weekend!

Eric

[tongueriver]

All I can say is "Wow!" An incredible amount of indisputable information from Eric, and involving significant labor. One does not just get all that posted in a couple of minutes. Thank you; thank you!

[orvet]

Great info Eric, thanks for posting it!

I know there was a lot of interaction, sharing of production capacity, making of parts, etc between Imperial & Schrade, as you said they were the same company. I also know Camillus made a lot of parts & knives for Schrade and Imperial. What I was told by Tom Williams was there was very little made by Schrade that went to Camillus, it mostly flowed from Camillus to Schrade or Imperial. I have a number of Camillus S-cards detailing knives or parts made by Camillus for Schrade & Imperial. I think in some cases Schrade or Imperial may have provided parts for knives assembled by Camillus, as I seem to recall seeing notations on an S-card that blades on one knife was supplied by Schrade.

This may seem like much ado about nothing, but Camillus was unique in one respect, Camillus was not part of the Imperial Schrade Associated Companies but were solely owned by Albert Baer as of 1963. It wasn’t until 1983 that Albert bought the remaining stock of ISAC and it became a privately held corporation with Albert Baer as the major shareholder. I am not sure but he may have been the sole owner. Camillus was different in the respect that it was sort of Albert’s baby. He had started working there for Adolph Kastor in the 1920s, IIRC. He was the star salesman for Camillus and was responsible for landing the Sears and Roebuck account among others. He had purchased a lot of Camillus stock prior to leaving Camillus around 1940. Camillus was where Albert's career in the cutlery business really took wings and I think he had a great affinity for Camillus.

Although Albert Baer owned a lot of ISAC, he did not own it solely until 1983. I have a number of S-cards dated 1984 and later that shows Camillus produced a number of patterns for the Imperial Frontier line. This date was after Albert Baer owned ISAC. I know some of the Imperial Frontier line was produced in Ellenville and some in Providence also. All three companies produced parts of that line. It is at that point where we see a lot of sharing back and forth of the workload between Imperial, Schrade & Camillus. However in the 1970s that was not the case. From what I have been able to gather from my conversations with Tom Williams, Camillus seem to be a company that ISAC used for contract work, to make parts and some knives, but they were not a member ISAC, I think they were treated as a contractor not a member of the ISAC family.
I could be wrong on this, and am quite willing to be corrected, but based on what I learned from my conversations with Tom Williams Camillus was always treated as a separate entity from Imperial/Schrade. Tom also told me that it was not widely publicized that Albert Bare owned Camillus. Tom said it was kind of hush-hush, so much so that when Albert Baer was not referred by his name at Camillus but referred to as “Mr. B.”

[tongueriver]

Well, I am afraid this thread is far afield from where it started a few pages back, but, oh well. Dale will remember these two. Herman Williams told me they were made by Imperial, but I thought they were made by Camillus, and I even think I saw an S card for one of them. Neither knife has an analogue in the 885, the 834 or the 897 UH knives. They are not the same even in the frame.