A CHALLENGE for you.

[LongBlade]

Real nice knives Dave ... That HS&B has alot of classic style ...

[djknife13]

Those are such good looking knives, Dave. How long are they?

If I remember correctly they are 3&5/8 inches.___Dave

[FRJ]

Thanks, Dave.

[peanut740]

Fine bunch of knives guys!

[JohnR]

Thanks Dave, love the HS&B, rarely do you see a vintage jack with 2 full size blades, even the ones with sheepsfoot mains are scarce, I try to collect them and have only found 3, 2 Challenge and a Catt.

[FRJ]

I've got an old relic of a Schrade Cut. Co. like that.
I'll put it in the Schrade Legacy forum.

[ScoutKnives]

I picked up a Challenge 2 blade Easy opener Scout .
Thanks for looking .

Mike

[peanut740]

Mike,that is a dandy!

[LongBlade]

Great looking Challenge Scout Mike ... That bone is sweet, nice big blade with etch ...

[JohnR]

That's a great one Mike!

[ScoutKnives]

Thank you fellas , super glad to have found it .

[Mumbleypeg]

Great find Mike. First challenge in that pattern I’ve seen. Nice etch too!

Ken

[wlf]

Beautiful bone, great addition to one of the best scout collections.

[FRJ]

A good looking knife and a great pattern.

[TripleF]

I believe this is the 2nd to pass by here...

[LongBlade]

Great old HOK Scott .. Thanks for sharing it!

[Campbellclanman]

Wow- Challenge make some great Knives don't they!

These knives are Challenge Knives -or at least two are stamped as such- we all know a Challenge when we see one, but I put this out there for discussion on the B/F a while ago...
These are three older Harness Jacks, two are stamped Challenge, the other is Stamped Townley.......

The very Tidy Ebony HJ is a Challenge stamped Knife ( immediate Left )- sporting an Alvord Punch ( Empire Knives ) with the Alvord Patent # ( thats lighting on the tip- not scratch damage ) , the other Ebony in the Middle is Townley Stamped- the exact same knife- most definitely made by the same manufacturer as the Challenge, the Nice old Jigged Bone is also stamped Challenge but sports a slightly different Punch- again by Empire - I add a slightly smaller Empire Girls Scout Knife with this second mentioned Shaped punch as a reference - this Empire Girls Punch is slightly taken down to fit the frame - but is definitely the same Punch - ( I added the revers side for Shoulder comparisons )
So this leaves a couple of theories....

Challenge had Empire Contract Make these Knives for them.... or....
Challenge bought the Punches from Empire,

IMG_1585.JPG (51.5 KiB) Viewed 3715 times

Now with the Empire Girls scout Knife added - for comparisons to the Jigged Bone Challenge that has the other Empire Styled Punch..

Closer up..The reverse for comparisons - Tang, Shape of Shouldering etc...

Copy of Alvords Punch Patent ( Empire Knives )

I always have to thanks Charlie for his help with my trying to learn about the HJ Knife,PLEASE know I don't always get it right - but I put it out there for discussion as to what I am thinking- very much like as if you and say 5 or 6 of your very closest Knife mates were sitting around a table ( having a Beer as well of course!) - and you just say " Hey..what do you think.... this looks to me like a....."

[danno50]

Those are three lovely Challenge HJs, Campbellclanman! I know nothing about punches. Other questions I might have are: did Empire have exclusive rights to the Alvord punch?; did Empire manufacture the Alvord punch or did Alvord manufacture them and sell them to Empire?; have you seen or handled any Empire stamped HJs to compare other elements of manufacture to the Challenge stamped knives? I have a photo of Charlie's Empire display somewhere in my files. I will check it out, there must have been a harness jack or two in there.
You would think, with all the interrelationships between cutlery companies back then, that paper documentation might still be around. ie. Invoices from one cutlery company to another for punches, or completed contract knives?

[peanut740]

Good detective work!It helps to have the knives to compare.

[LongBlade]

Duncan - Nice knives and excellent background search to figure it out ... All those knives are great examples!!!

I remember that discussion on BF ... Given Empire probably did more contract work than making knives for themselves one can speculate Empire made knives for Challenge... on the other hand maybe they made only the punches for Challenge... the rear of the punches match but I had only seen Alvord’s punches with the “lip” but the patent no doubt shows the nail nicks on the Alford punch as well... really interesting Duncan and thanks for sharing it here ... I can’t seem to find the reference but I thought there was a contract connection with Townley and Empire ..

[Campbellclanman]

Hi Dan Roger and Lee
How are you all going?

I first put up the Townley in BF - Old Knives Thread - here...

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/old ... 6/page-791


Charlie followed up with a couple of his Empire HJ's with two of the different Punches that I have displayed above, Charlie seemed to think the Townley was an Empire Contract made knife- the discussion got quite involved, please remember here folks, I know little but ask lots lol.

Because of the Shields - we discussed other Knife makers that used such shields...

Dan, although I have many Vintage / Antique HJ's I havent any Empire HJ's ( darn it ) but will do one day.... but Charlie has compared his as you can see ( I owe absolutely EVERYTHING ) to Charlie with my journey in Traditonal Knives, we have talked many many times - meet a few times- he is just a wonderful man, but as you bought up Dan the massive Empire display that Charlie Built up- and recently let go of... at quick glance there were a couple of HJ's @10 O'clock in the photo, in saying this - there is another photo of the same display board and the HJ's arent there- so as we do- this board would have been totally re-organised with additions and such.

So...yes we did compare the Empire made HJ's with the Townley and Challenge's - they shared many features that suggested them being Empire made - which of course we know as not to be taken as Gospel.

Its strange because even going through my collection of older HJ's and learning more and more as we go down this path, I find different things in my HJ's each time I take them out- for instance the Robeson Punch used on many knives that are stamped in another name - again the same questions come up - are these Robeson made? are these Robeson Punch Supplied? You also will find Utica's lighteneing bolt Punch used the same- in many other Knives stamped other than Utica - I have the photos of these in Charlies HJ Thread BF, no doubt in time these will come out here?
That Punch patent got around, I am sure Empire owned that Punch, and either sold out to othe Cutler firms the Punch or - as Empire prolifically did - contract out the making of these knives to other Cutler firms.

While discussing this Eric came in just to raise more questions when he display a stunning New York massive HJ- that sported the Robeson Patented Punch? so... for now I am learning that Stamps dont tell the whole story, The Bolsters, The shields, The Punch Styles, The Swages etc etc all combine collective information that at times can give a clear answer, or...because as mentioned before...Paper work that is missing from the older days of sales or contracts between these amazing Cutler firms - just arent available for us to go ah ha! -gotchya! with more answers - come more questions lol.


With Mr Seymour Alvord being Treasurer ? at the time of Empire Knives - I am lead to believe that Empire would own that Patent of the Punch.

Here is another link showing an Ulster Knife with the U.S Patented Punch to Empire showing this same Punch
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ ... -171059632


Lee my friend, in that same link - Charlie shows another Townley that is Schrade made - so it looks as though ( to me anyway ) that I am heavily swaying toward Townley contracting out to Empire and Schrade for the two discussed knives?

ANYWAY!!! I am terribly sorry to go on about this- just wanted to cover this as much as possible and answer your thoughts with mine

[Mumbleypeg]

Some good education being offered in those posts. Thank you! (Now if I can just remember it.)

Ken

[FRJ]

Some good education being offered in those posts. Thank you! (Now if I can just remember it.)

Ken

I agree, great contributions here. Thank you.

I have a nice knife for this thread.

[peanut740]

Hi Dan Roger and Lee
How are you all going?

I first put up the Townley in BF - Old Knives Thread - here...

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/old ... 6/page-791


Charlie followed up with a couple of his Empire HJ's with two of the different Punches that I have displayed above, Charlie seemed to think the Townley was an Empire Contract made knife- the discussion got quite involved, please remember here folks, I know little but ask lots lol.

Because of the Shields - we discussed other Knife makers that used such shields...

Dan, although I have many Vintage / Antique HJ's I havent any Empire HJ's ( darn it ) but will do one day.... but Charlie has compared his as you can see ( I owe absolutely EVERYTHING ) to Charlie with my journey in Traditonal Knives, we have talked many many times - meet a few times- he is just a wonderful man, but as you bought up Dan the massive Empire display that Charlie Built up- and recently let go of... at quick glance there were a couple of HJ's @10 O'clock in the photo, in saying this - there is another photo of the same display board and the HJ's arent there- so as we do- this board would have been totally re-organised with additions and such.

So...yes we did compare the Empire made HJ's with the Townley and Challenge's - they shared many features that suggested them being Empire made - which of course we know as not to be taken as Gospel.

Its strange because even going through my collection of older HJ's and learning more and more as we go down this path, I find different things in my HJ's each time I take them out- for instance the Robeson Punch used on many knives that are stamped in another name - again the same questions come up - are these Robeson made? are these Robeson Punch Supplied? You also will find Utica's lighteneing bolt Punch used the same- in many other Knives stamped other than Utica - I have the photos of these in Charlies HJ Thread BF, no doubt in time these will come out here?
That Punch patent got around, I am sure Empire owned that Punch, and either sold out to othe Cutler firms the Punch or - as Empire prolifically did - contract out the making of these knives to other Cutler firms.

While discussing this Eric came in just to raise more questions when he display a stunning New York massive HJ- that sported the Robeson Patented Punch? so... for now I am learning that Stamps dont tell the whole story, The Bolsters, The shields, The Punch Styles, The Swages etc etc all combine collective information that at times can give a clear answer, or...because as mentioned before...Paper work that is missing from the older days of sales or contracts between these amazing Cutler firms - just arent available for us to go ah ha! -gotchya! with more answers - come more questions lol.


With Mr Seymour Alvord being Treasurer ? at the time of Empire Knives - I am lead to believe that Empire would own that Patent of the Punch.

Here is another link showing an Ulster Knife with the U.S Patented Punch to Empire showing this same Punch
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ ... -171059632


Lee my friend, in that same link - Charlie shows another Townley that is Schrade made - so it looks as though ( to me anyway ) that I am heavily swaying toward Townley contracting out to Empire and Schrade for the two discussed knives?

ANYWAY!!! I am terribly sorry to go on about this- just wanted to cover this as much as possible and answer your thoughts with mine

These comparisons teach us much,but still leaves us scratching our heads at times.When it comes to jobber brands,if these companies were around very long,they no doubt had many different suppliers.I have a Townley toenail that is German made.Nice seeing you post here Duncan.

[LongBlade]

Hi Dan Roger and Lee
How are you all going?

I first put up the Townley in BF - Old Knives Thread - here...

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/old ... 6/page-791


Charlie followed up with a couple of his Empire HJ's with two of the different Punches that I have displayed above, Charlie seemed to think the Townley was an Empire Contract made knife- the discussion got quite involved, please remember here folks, I know little but ask lots lol.

Because of the Shields - we discussed other Knife makers that used such shields...

Dan, although I have many Vintage / Antique HJ's I havent any Empire HJ's ( darn it ) but will do one day.... but Charlie has compared his as you can see ( I owe absolutely EVERYTHING ) to Charlie with my journey in Traditonal Knives, we have talked many many times - meet a few times- he is just a wonderful man, but as you bought up Dan the massive Empire display that Charlie Built up- and recently let go of... at quick glance there were a couple of HJ's @10 O'clock in the photo, in saying this - there is another photo of the same display board and the HJ's arent there- so as we do- this board would have been totally re-organised with additions and such.

So...yes we did compare the Empire made HJ's with the Townley and Challenge's - they shared many features that suggested them being Empire made - which of course we know as not to be taken as Gospel.

Its strange because even going through my collection of older HJ's and learning more and more as we go down this path, I find different things in my HJ's each time I take them out- for instance the Robeson Punch used on many knives that are stamped in another name - again the same questions come up - are these Robeson made? are these Robeson Punch Supplied? You also will find Utica's lighteneing bolt Punch used the same- in many other Knives stamped other than Utica - I have the photos of these in Charlies HJ Thread BF, no doubt in time these will come out here?
That Punch patent got around, I am sure Empire owned that Punch, and either sold out to othe Cutler firms the Punch or - as Empire prolifically did - contract out the making of these knives to other Cutler firms.

While discussing this Eric came in just to raise more questions when he display a stunning New York massive HJ- that sported the Robeson Patented Punch? so... for now I am learning that Stamps dont tell the whole story, The Bolsters, The shields, The Punch Styles, The Swages etc etc all combine collective information that at times can give a clear answer, or...because as mentioned before...Paper work that is missing from the older days of sales or contracts between these amazing Cutler firms - just arent available for us to go ah ha! -gotchya! with more answers - come more questions lol.


With Mr Seymour Alvord being Treasurer ? at the time of Empire Knives - I am lead to believe that Empire would own that Patent of the Punch.

Here is another link showing an Ulster Knife with the U.S Patented Punch to Empire showing this same Punch
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ ... -171059632


Lee my friend, in that same link - Charlie shows another Townley that is Schrade made - so it looks as though ( to me anyway ) that I am heavily swaying toward Townley contracting out to Empire and Schrade for the two discussed knives?

ANYWAY!!! I am terribly sorry to go on about this- just wanted to cover this as much as possible and answer your thoughts with mine

Cool discussion Duncan and thanks for sharing it!! ... Now that I reread the BF thread I think I remember where I saw the reference to Empire and also Schrade - as you noted from Charlie's post ... All the interactions of the old firms in terms of contract work for other companies or contract knives/blades/parts to industrial competitors (eg. Empire and Challenge or Schrade?) is rather interesting from a historical perspective .. Always fun to find new levels of understanding the history through knives such as you posted Duncan