Cornwall Knife Company Eagle Scout Knife

[mgbbrown]

Thank you so much. This should be a civil discourse. I author a thread on a British car forum, which is getting close to 210,000 views. Even though I hold a measure of expertise in the MGB world- I certainly do not here. Remember- pride goes before destruction, and a haunty spirit before a fall! Believe me- you cannot learn without civility. I am an Eagle Scout who was just looking for an Eagle Scout Camillus knife!
In the background- I sent the knife to Glen Brooks in Benton, Tennessee for evaluation. At 81 years old- he is a seasoned restorer and knife maker. He reported that the knife was authentic and has not been altered in any way, and certainly the main blade pivot pin was not removed to replace a broken blade or make the knife something it is not. I asked him to take pictures and document it thoroughly, so hopefully he will provide authentication. I also contacted the seller- he obtained the knife from his late grandfather-in-law who was a collector. He knows nothing else about its history. On the Scout Knives.net web site- this knife, with its round Scout emblem, has been in production since 1947. Camillus made military folders and the famous K-Bar knife under contract during WW2, so if indeed they had a supply of Cornwall stamped blades to initiate this knife’s production- it is possible they were used in the first batch until the stock was depleted. I do think that with authenticity being established for just this one example- we can hopefully say that it is a very early Eagle Scout Whittler. As mentioned earlier- the scales are jigged Vulcanite and not Delrin, so it at the very least would predate the appearance of Delrin in Camillus production in the mid to late 1960’s. I was trying to find a knife made around when l obtained my Eagle rank in 1968, so I got more than I bargained for methinks…

[ScoutKnives]

Ok wow , so everyone telling you the history of the tang stamp and the era of the knife is wrong and your 81 year old expert tells you the knife is authentic or the blade is original to that frame ?
Simple fact is the knife was made after 1970 , with just a little research will show you that .

[ronfish]

I think the story we are chasing here, defies logic. If the blade was made prior to the existence of the swell center whittler knife, then Cornwall couldn’t have possibly predicted the characteristics the blade would need in order to fit on a future Camillus whittler knife.

If you look carefully around scoutknives.net, you will notice that I am given photo credit for several of the knives pictured on that site. I know A thing or two about scout knives. I have such an extensive collection of scout knives that I am slightly embarrassed to show my friends because they will realize how bad my addiction is. If you were interested, you can check out my posts about my collection.

I could also explain to you in detail my credentials on this exact topic and the fact that I acquired a litany of scout knives from Nilo Miori‘s personal Collection, which included brand new unopened boxes of official scout whittler knives. At the point in time, Camillus was running a production operation, not a one off cobble shop where they used random parts and pieces.

Respectfully, there is clear evidence the knife has been taken apart that is being overlooked. I am sure our knife mechanics on this site can look at the back spring photo and confirm that the space between the liners is evidence of tampering.

[knifeaholic]

Just my two cents about Cornwall. The most important lesson of Mr Levine (he doesn't always follow it) is "read the knife, not the story". Goins says Cornwall was pre-1920 yet I have never seen one that looked like a pre-1920 knife. All I have seen looked like 1930s knives by material and construction. Goins made mistakes in his books too, just like Levine, these guys wrote their fantastic knife guides many years ago and much knife info has come to light since they wrote them. They also likely never examined any or many actual knives they wrote about (read the knife, not the story).

There was also a Cornwall Knife Co Connecticut (no relation to the Cornwall NY) - those knives are quite rare and I'm certain that they predate 1920.

I agree, the Cornwall NY knives made by Camillus seemed to be a 1920's to 30's "budget" low-priced line, with celluloid handles and many with bumped-tip bolsters.

[bestgear]

…we can hopefully say that it is a very early Eagle Scout Whittler

The “we” is just you and Mr. Brooks at this point since you refuse to accept the sound logic being freely offered by some of the top Official Scout Knife collectors in the country that have denounced it’s authenticity.

If you can find any hard evidence of this knife being an Official Eagle Scout Whittler (like a BSA National Supply Catalog, a Cornwall manufacturing catalog, a Boys Life advertisement etc.) you’d have our full and complete attention. Until then, I remain firmly in the cobbled knife corner.

[Mumbleypeg]

Regardless, it is NOT an “Eagle Scout whittler” as it has been referred to multiple times in this thread (including the thread’s title). Nor is it any Eagle Scout knife. The shield on the OP knife is a standard BSA Tenderfoot badge, which does depict the BSA eagle overlayed on the scout fleur-de-lis emblem. However it is not the Eagle Scout badge. There are differences.

Ken

[zzyzzogeton]

I can't say as to when the KNIFE was made BUT...

The BSA shifted its official logo from the 1st Class rank badge to the Tenderfoot rank badge starting in 1961. An attempt to widen the market so to say - a lot of younger scouts and parents thought that they couldn't buy the official stuff with a 1st Class badge until their kids made 1st Class. So the change was made to entice more people to buy the "official" stuff, which made more money for the BSA as they got a piece of every "official" sale.

The presence of one badge or the other can immediately identify ANY scout item into 2 major "manufacturing ages" - 1960 and earlier or 1961 and later.

[Mumbleypeg]

I can't say as to when the KNIFE was made BUT...

The BSA shifted its official logo from the 1st Class rank badge to the Tenderfoot rank badge starting in 1961. An attempt to widen the market so to say - a lot of younger scouts and parents thought that they couldn't buy the official stuff with a 1st Class badge until their kids made 1st Class. So the change was made to entice more people to buy the "official" stuff, which made more money for the BSA as they got a piece of every "official" sale.

The presence of one badge or the other can immediately identify ANY scout item into 2 major "manufacturing ages" - 1960 and earlier or 1961 and later.

Thanks for that information. Since the BSA changed official BSA equipment from the First Class emblem to the Tenderfoot emblem in 1961, that further confirms the OP knife is not authentic. Per mgbbrown’s theory, Cornwall was making knives into the late 1930s, and when Camillus started up postwar production of civilian cutlery, a shortage of steel forced them to use leftover Cornwall blades. Conveniently fits the timeline of the first Camillus BSA 1047 pattern knife being made in 1947 (Holbrook). According again to Holbrook Camillus had in fact started producing another different official BSA scout pattern in 1946 - somehow they apparently found steel to make it.

However at that time the official BSA policy was use of the First Class emblem on BSA gear. Here’s the Camillus BSA 1047 of 1947-1969 (Holbrook) - note the BSA First Class badge shield:

Per Holbrook, in 1970 Camillus changed their BSA 1047 to the Tenderfoot badge shield. Reference the OP knife which is clearly a Camillus 1047 frame and handle covers, with a Tenderfoot badge shield. Which Camillus would not have made until 1970 or later. That debunks rather convincingly the “post-war material shortage” theory explanation to justify the Cornwall blade being used by Camillus. If we assume Cornwall was in business until 1940 (most sources say 1930), the blade would have been at least 23 years old at the time. (No steel shortage existed in 1970).

Ken

[mgbbrown]

I have now wet my feet into collecting camp pattern Camillus knives and Camillus Scout knives in the era surrounding WW2. I recently talked with an official Scout knife collector and forum member who lives in North Carolina not too far from me in Siler City- he, like everyone here in this discussion, believes that first and foremost the knife is an anomaly. Second- the blade is a replacement, either by some rogue Camillus employee cobbling up a knife or by a nefarious player wanting to make money. The nefarious player possibility certainly makes more sense. The round Tenderfoot shield was introduced around 1970 on the 1047 Whittler as documented by Holbrook. It is not an early, Federal shield shaped Scout emblem knife. We agree that the frame is Camillus with Micarta or pre-Delrin scales and brass pins, making it at least an early, round emblem example. The main blade has at least a thirty year head start in production. With all respect to Glen Brooks who examined this knife- l must bow to the consensus here on the forum.

I want to thank all of you who contributed to this discussion in a civil manner, as it has gone a long way in not alienating me from
this group, nor from collecting Camillus camp and Scout knives. Like l said in the beginning- l had no skin in this game and was open all along to various opinions. My reluctance after Glen Brooks examined the knife was out of respect to him- an 81 year old former Western Knife employee. Again- thanks to all who contributed- it has shaped my collecting outlook and use of resources significantly.

[Madmarco]

I have now wet my feet into collecting camp pattern Camillus knives and Camillus Scout knives in the era surrounding WW2. I recently talked with an official Scout knife collector and forum member who lives in North Carolina not too far from me in Siler City- he, like everyone here in this discussion, believes that first and foremost the knife is an anomaly. Second- the blade is a replacement, either by some rogue Camillus employee cobbling up a knife or by a nefarious player wanting to make money. The nefarious player possibility certainly makes more sense. The round Tenderfoot shield was introduced around 1970 on the 1047 Whittler as documented by Holbrook. It is not an early, Federal shield shaped Scout emblem knife. We agree that the frame is Camillus with Micarta or pre-Delrin scales and brass pins, making it at least an early, round emblem example. The main blade has at least a thirty year head start in production. With all respect to Glen Brooks who examined this knife- l must bow to the consensus here on the forum.

I want to thank all of you who contributed to this discussion in a civil manner, as it has gone a long way in not alienating me from
this group, nor from collecting Camillus camp and Scout knives. Like l said in the beginning- l had no skin in this game and was open all along to various opinions. My reluctance after Glen Brooks examined the knife was out of respect to him- an 81 year old former Western Knife employee. Again- thanks to all who contributed- it has shaped my collecting outlook and use of resources significantly.

Very nice line-up, mgb, welcome to AAPK!