All About Pocket Knives

The verdigris will also damage leather sheaths. It will eventually rot the leather around brass rivets and snaps.

Brass, a yellow alloy of copper and zinc. Thus different formulas or grades. Zinc is now consider in shortage. Silver tarnishes due to sulfur in the air.

I think you're right about different formulas and grades of brass. I'm thinking the price has something to do with the quality of the brass. The brass on my Randall was caked up, but when cleaned you would never know (high dollar). The Silver Stag was the same, but when cleaned it shows a little bit of pitting (expensive). The Schrade is pretty much ruined, as far as appearance (inexpensive). I do think if left long enough the Randall would eventually cave in to the pitting, but would just take longer.

Ken

Ray, I have a tackle box tray of Camillus Streamline knife parts. Because of the damage caused by the off-gassing Celluloid used on those knives, it takes me about 3 or 4 knives to get enough parts to rebuild one. I have several that have fallen apart in my hands when I start to take them apart. Like the one in your picture both minors are cracked completely through at the center pin.

Several guys mentioned grades of brass. I think you are right, there are different grades and different qualities. One time while doing some research on brass I came across the term "white brass." I was a bit puzzled by the term until I looked it up and found out that it was just another name for nickel silver.
Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. Nickel silver is an alloy of copper and zinc with Nickel added.

The rusty red look that nickel silver holsters get when in the presence of off-gassing celluloid is caused by the acid given off by the celluloid leaching the copper out of Pinnacle silver.


When you have a large collection it is difficult separate all of the knives from all of the sheaths to prevent verdigris from running the knives. If I have verdigris forming on a knife I will clean it off and use a Polish like Pink Polish, Blue Magic or something like that to remove the Verdigris from the knife and then I wipe the knife down with Walker wax to seal it and prevent Verdigris from returning. From eBay I ordered some 3 inch by 6 in Ziploc bags and I put the knives in the bags and seal them, and then put the knife back in its sheath. That way I don't have to keep track of which knife goes to which sheath. Since I have been doing it this way, I have not had Verdigris return on any of the knives I had cleaned in this fashion and sealed in Ziploc baggies.

Dale, I like this idea of the Ziploc bags, do you put a desiccant in w/ the knife?
I did not come up w/ any kind of a system to match knives to sheaths when I first started collecting. Didn’t really give it any thought because I thought I could remember. But years later when I decided to sell some, I couldn’t figure out in some cases what went w/ what. It’s pain getting old. Now I try to remember to put a description of the sheath in my inventory book and if it’s in a box I mark that so I can tell which goes w/ which.
My only concern w/ the Ziplocs would be moisture in the bag. But on the other hand w/ a desiccant would it get too dry?
Any thoughts on this?
Mark

Mark,
I do put a desiccant pack in with the knife when I remember... (I am old too).
But because I am old I take a lot of pills and supplements which keep me supplied with plenty of small desiccant packs that come in the pill bottles.
I have to see that as the up side to taking the pills!
I haven't noticed any knives being too dry. I don't think the little packets are efficient enough to be able to do that.

As far as a system to keep track of which sheath goes with which knife, you're on your own, I haven't figured that out yet.

Sharpnshinyknives wrote:Dale, I like this idea of the Ziploc bags, do you put a desiccant in w/ the knife?
I did not come up w/ any kind of a system to match knives to sheaths when I first started collecting. Didn’t really give it any thought because I thought I could remember. But years later when I decided to sell some, I couldn’t figure out in some cases what went w/ what. It’s pain getting old. Now I try to remember to put a description of the sheath in my inventory book and if it’s in a box I mark that so I can tell which goes w/ which.
My only concern w/ the Ziplocs would be moisture in the bag. But on the other hand w/ a desiccant would it get too dry?
Any thoughts on this?
Mark

My solution for matching knives with sheaths is to use small tie tags on the sheath with a description of the knife on it. Probably an even easier method would be just to use tags on knives and sheaths and have corresponding numbers on them.All my sheaths are stored in two rifle cases with large dessicant bags in them.The bags are changed about every three months and the old ones are heated in the oven at the lowest temp setting(175 degrees I think)for about 30 minutes. This dries out any accumulated moisture in them and they are then stored in plastic bags.
Over the years I have accumulated rather large dessicant bags that were used in electronic equipment shipping containers and they still work fine.The smaller ones are just as good;you just have to change them more frequently.
I like Dale's idea of putting the knives in bags and then storing them back in the sheaths too.

In what now seems like a previous life I was an avid knife collector along with several real good friends. I always still liked knives but just sort of quit buying them when I ran out of space about twenty or so years back. I had not looked at some of my blades for about twenty years and another collector buddy got me started going back through them recently after he informed me of him and his brothers woes brought on by brass and celluloid and the resulting brass rot or Verdigris that celluloid can bring out. It is a sad and terrible thing! Fortunately I never did get all that much into the celluloids, as my buddy and his brother did, but from what I found in the ones I did purchase I wish I would have NEVER bought a single celluloid!

My research into it says that any celluloid slabbed knife is a ticking time bomb. And in my experience when they go, they will take out ones next to them (if stored in the same knife roll), or especially bad if closed up in a box, with extreme rot happening if that box was one of the ones with old plastic molded pocket for the blade with a sort of velour flocking lining the box pocket. That seems to accelerate the speed at which the rot proceeds. I even had small desiccant pouches stored in with most of these knives and it rots those out too! I had one nice 4.5 inch imitation tortoise shell toothpick that sat on my bench here for years that I bought at a knife show so had no box for it. It sat here for years with no issues whatsoever. I finally put it away about a year ago (knife rolled it) and was shocked when I looked at it to find the whole thing looked like the end of a battery cable covered with green fuzz. I found about ten others as bad, or worse, but was lucky in that I caught most just in time. I was able to clean them up pretty well, but none will EVER be pristine mint again. And a couple are just junk.............. Sad.

From what I read the celluloid creates a Nitric acid that quickly attacks the brass as well as the steel in blades and springs. For some reason it eats up the blades that sit just above the blade pocket the worst....kind of like it is able to outgas more of the acid right there? It also eats the blade etches off which I have never seen before! I have never seen ANYTHING eat an etch off the side of steel like this before....just bizarre. It makes the etch just disappear even though when these knives were put away the etches were very dark and quite a few of these had been coated with a product called White Lightning when I last stored them away. It is a sort of wax with a carrier that evaporates off leaving a nice wax coating to prevent moisture from getting through to the steel parts. I am in high desert country so not to much moisture here, but this Verdigris makes knives look like they were stored under water in a very short amount of time! It also eats the sharp edge off the blades!

I know this is over a five year old thread so many who posted will probably not see this, but just figured as I am new to this site I would add a few of my observations to this thread and log my first posting.

Also looking at the pictures that Knife7Knut posted I can tell you his first picture is of a Buck Creek cracked ice handled swing guard. I just did spend WAY to much time over the past couple months completely taking the exact same knife apart and making new brass liners for it due to the brass rot causing the brass to weaken and since it is riveted to the spring it completely cracks the brass liners through in two or three places where the pins were located due to the spring tension. It even turned the cracked ice handles a weird shade of green! I re-handled it in a jigged bone. It came out pretty good other than a few spider web spots left on the blade and a few corrosion spots on the back of the spring. Guess now I can go ahead and use it as a carry knife?

Welcome to AAPK. Your testimonial confirms what is contained in numerous (maybe hundreds of) similar posts and threads here about celluloid and verdigris. Thanks for sharing.

What you do with the knife is up to you!

Ken

Okay, I won't claim this will work for everyone, but it works for me.

On all my knives with brass bolsters (Case, Buck, Schrade, Browning, others) I wrap them tightly in a special paper I purchased that is treated with a vapor phase corrosion inhibitor. Sometimes referred to as VCI Paper or VPCI Paper. It is a kraft style paper that has one side treated with the VCI material. After tightly wrapping the knife in the paper, I will sometimes insert it into a small 3" x 5" VCI zipper plastic bag, wrap it tightly and insert it back in the sheath. Some of my brass bolstered folding hunter type knives have now been stored for five years this way with no sign of verdigris.

For what its worth, storing the knives in JUST the 3" x 5" VCI zipper bag without the VCI Paper does not work nearly as well. When in the sheath, the bolsters will still sometimes get some verdigris. But when I use the VCI Paper, with or without the VCI zipper bag, no verdigris.

I really like my folding hunters. And the verdigris problem was a high priority problem to correct for me. And my VCI Paper is doing the job.

By the way, the verdigris, if it gets bad enough, can ruin a sheath too.

I've got a 2002 6OT that had been stored in its (nylon) sheath, and not only did it have verdigris, the brass pitted. Seller was from coastal New England, and I am curious if the salt air played a part, or the more likely culprit, a celluloid handle knife was stored alongside it.

Seems, from what I have seen and experienced when in higher humidity, especially if near salt water the verdigris gets worse faster. I am in high desert country so that seems to slow it down somewhat, but does not get rid of it altogether, and if the knife is in a box. container, or even a knife roll, which can breathe some, containing the outgas from celluloid amplifies the speed at which the handles degrade and also amplify the degradation of the metals around the celluloid.

I had a couple wrapped with paper that the knives had originally been wrapped and shipped with from the factories,(unsure what the makeup of that paper is at it just looks like a fine tissue paper), the outgas from the handles on those discolored and caused the paper to just decompose. It just turned to dust as I touched it. Am sure it is due to the nitric acid eating it up as well. Some of those were really covered with green "moss" under the paper.

Does not happen if the handle material is bone, stag, or some of the more stable materials like delrin, or rough black. Strange too in that I have some 60-70 year old knives that still look wonderful that are celluloid. Guess it is just a matter of exactly what the composition of each knife handle is. Have noted that the ones with amore clear, see through top coating seem to be the ones that go the worst and fastest.

You would think knife companies would be aware of this and would quit using the bad/inferior materials?

I say get rid of the waxes. Wax like Renwax dries out over time and leaves little spaces where moisture can collect and get trapped. Never use it anymore, failed me many times. Oil is useless as soon as it evaporates or gets dried out. Used to use it but never again. It failed me too many times. Then I stumbled onto an experiment done on bare carbon steel blades left outside in the rain and elements for months. The oils and waxes ALL FAILED within two weeks. The Vaseline did not. Plain old Vaseline beat them all. Just a thin coat stays viscous for years, and if rubbed on a dry, clean blade will penetrate into the tiny pores of the steel, the gaps, the spaces where moisture hides. I have NOT had any spotting or corrosion for several years now since using Vaseline. Not once on any of hundreds of knives. None on carbon steel or brass or silver. It's a miracle worker for me and the only thing I have found that lasts for multiple years. Try it, will change your life.

I have never had any issues with oils and have real good success with that wax that was popular about 15-20 years back called White Lightning. I finally did just run out of my last bottle of it and contacted the company as they still make it although now sell it mostly as a bicycle chain lubricant. They have several different ones with different properties but the one I liked best went on easily by dripping it on and spreading with a finger. Then the wax carrier evaporates real fast leaving a nice coating of the wax on blades or other surfaces of tools, metal, or anything else you may want to protect. That one is now marketed as, "Clean Ride", by the same company.

I live in high desert country so we do not have to much trouble with high humidity which probably accounts for quite a bit of my success with that wax. I worked in Machine Shops for most all my life and keeping rust at bay is ALWAYS an issue on machines and tooling....even here in the desert sometimes. And sharp cutting tools, like knives will get degraded the fastest on the thinnest parts.....think blade edges. With oils and some solvents you MUST be careful cause if they get wet, from condensation or water dripping or spilled or sprayed on them, the oil or solvent will float on the water allowing the water to get under the protective film of oil/solvent and rust it anyway!

But you know...I NEVER, EVER, even thought of using Vaseline on knives! It makes TOTAL sense though. I know from experience if you want to keep rubber parts in perfect condition and keep them from degrading during storage you MUST store them in Vaseline. It insulates the rubber from the air, and any moisture that might be in it. The petroleum base also keeps rubbers and plastics from out gassing any of their vital ingredients. It is probably the best petroleum based product out there, other than what we run our vehicles on! IMO anyway!! It is cheap, easy to find, and safe.......even women use it, some daily to remove their makeup!

Not sure if it might accelerate the speed at which some of these damn celluloid handles rot out or not, but I got rid of most all of my celluloid handled pieces and figure this is well worth the price of admission.

GREAT tip, Ivoryman, THANKS!

Knifeslut2 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 5:19 pm I have never had any issues with oils and have real good success with that wax that was popular about 15-20 years back called White Lightning. I finally did just run out of my last bottle of it and contacted the company as they still make it although now sell it mostly as a bicycle chain lubricant. They have several different ones with different properties but the one I liked best went on easily by dripping it on and spreading with a finger. Then the wax carrier evaporates real fast leaving a nice coating of the wax on blades or other surfaces of tools, metal, or anything else you may want to protect. That one is now marketed as, "Clean Ride", by the same company.

I live in high desert country so we do not have to much trouble with high humidity which probably accounts for quite a bit of my success with that wax. I worked in Machine Shops for most all my life and keeping rust at bay is ALWAYS an issue on machines and tooling....even here in the desert sometimes. And sharp cutting tools, like knives will get degraded the fastest on the thinnest parts.....think blade edges. With oils and some solvents you MUST be careful cause if they get wet, from condensation or water dripping or spilled or sprayed on them, the oil or solvent will float on the water allowing the water to get under the protective film of oil/solvent and rust it anyway!

But you know...I NEVER, EVER, even thought of using Vaseline on knives! It makes TOTAL sense though. I know from experience if you want to keep rubber parts in perfect condition and keep them from degrading during storage you MUST store them in Vaseline. It insulates the rubber from the air, and any moisture that might be in it. The petroleum base also keeps rubbers and plastics from out gassing any of their vital ingredients. It is probably the best petroleum based product out there, other than what we run our vehicles on! IMO anyway!! It is cheap, easy to find, and safe.......even women use it, some daily to remove their makeup!

Not sure if it might accelerate the speed at which some of these damn celluloid handles rot out or not, but I got rid of most all of my celluloid handled pieces and figure this is well worth the price of admission.

GREAT tip, Ivoryman, THANKS!

Your welcome. Anytime. Was surprised to see nobody commented or confirmed for so long. I have used it exclusively for years now and no problem. I live 5 miles from Puget Sound, salt water and humidity city. Plus all the rain around here. Wet most of the year and much of it with 80-90 percent humidity or more. The vaseline after a year or two will look just like it did when I put it on and no spotting, spider lines or pits whenever I check them. Plus it comes right off with a tissue or rag and you're good to go, carry, use, store or whatever. Best stuff I've found and available anywhere and cheap, the smallesy container has lasted 5 years and isnt even half gone. Cannot reccommend it enough. Glad it was helpful knifeslut. Great if it works for you where you live. But I avoid celluloid like plague so don't know if it will save or help them.

When I began serious collecting some 50+ years ago most if not all of my knives at the time were carbon steel. I was also attending several knife shows each year, and actively doing some trading. For lack of anything better at the time, I used Vaseline as a preservative/protectant.

I can’t share the enthusiasm for vaseline. I found it too messy and a PITA for knives I was carrying to shows and other trading situations where they would be handled and examined. But I used it for knives I had no intention of parting with, and stored in my safe. My experience was that although it does provide protection, with the passing of time Vaseline does dry out and become adhered to metal. I suspect the time for this would vary depending on temperature and humidity. Lint, dirt etc if and when encountered will stick to it. With some effort and use of solvents I found the hardened dried vaseline removable without damage to the knives. However it’s a PITA. Before it dries out and hardens I found it a mess to clean off the knife every time you want to handle it. I moved on from Vaseline to a succession of other products like silicone, oils, etc.

In my experience Vaseline won’t hurt your knives. However there are much better options available today, many which have been developed for the specific purpose of protecting firearms, fishing tackle, knives and other gear from the harshest of environments - dusty deserts to high humidity and salt water. Many of them are the result of military contracts and extensive testing. If you spend money on and value your collection, don’t try to spendthrift its preservation. Take some time to research products like Tuf-Glide, Renaissance Wax (aka RenWax), Sackups, etc. it’s a small investment relative to what most spend on knives. JMO

BTW I still have most of those old carbon steel knives, all as mint or near-mint as they were when they came off the factory floor. Along with a few casualties from trial-and-error over the years. By sharing my follies I hope you can avoid them. Even if most of your collection is stainless steel.

Ken

Mumbleypeg:

Thanks for your summation of what you have found protects mint carbon steel knives for as much as over a 50-year period of storage.

Beginning about 25 years ago, since I could not obtain the camellia oil recommended by Bernard Levine in his KNIFE GUIDE editions, I have used LA-CO-brand machine oil, which seems to have worked well as both lubrication and protection.

An advanced salt water fishing tackle collector I know avers that if you have active, that is, red, rust to address, only WD-40 will arrest it. So, that has become my one deviation from regular use of machine oil.

Have you an opinion on using BALLISTOL for knives? It has been praised by many for protecting firearms, both here and overseas, in peace and war, for decades. It leaves a heavier film on gun metal than silicone or light oil, but I have yet to hear of any complaints.

I don’t have any experience with Ballistol, on either firearms or knives, so I can’t say anything one way or another about it. In general I believe there are many good products that have been developed over the years, most of them initially with firearms in mind. They happen to be good for knives and other gear also, and most of them are relatively inexpensive especially when compared to the cost (and value) of the items they are designed to be used on. When I see comments about them being “expensive” I just shake my head in dismay.

I have a bottle of Tuf-Glide, a small jar of MinWax, a small bottle of Quick Release oil, and a soft cloth. A little goes a long way for all of them. Minimal investment for years of knife care and maintenance. There are a number of good products, these are what works for me. Most of us have favorites, and there are several threads here about them and the testimonials.

I first became aware of Tuf-Glide around mid-to-late 1990s when a friend introduced me to it at the range. He’s a Marine Corps veteran of the Iraq wars, who first used it there. On his recommendation I bought some for firearms use, but not long afterward I saw it as part of a knife care kit. Why not? So I started using it on my knives. I found it to work great, especially as a corrosion inhibitor. Used as directed it’s great stuff. Its proprietary ingredient (I suspect molybdenum disulfide - look it up) is in a mineral spirits carrier which quickly evaporates leaving an invisible lube and protectant coating. If you’re one who believes “if I can’t see it, it must not be working”, it’s not for you.

BTW I’m not a fan of WD-40. “WD” stands for Water Displacement. It’s good for drying out moisture (the enabler of rust). It has found its fame as a general purpose lubricant and protectant, but IMHO it’s not a very good lube, and there are better protectants. But it’s better than nothing. And it’s handy. You can buy it everywhere - great marketing strategy!

Ken

Good information guys THANKS!

I was wondering how messy Vaseline might be to remove, and knowing first hand how it can sort of "spread" around just from when women use it to remove make up had given me some concerns about using it!

I use and really like Tuff Glide. It is thin enough it wicks down along the slip joint springs and penetrates deep into the pivot points. I had used that White lightning on some of the blades I stored in those knife rolls. I like it a lot as it is easy to remove and none of those blades had ANY type of rust, spider webbing, or degrading at all. And as mentioned it is still available just not called White Lightning any longer but still made by them. The new name is clean ride. It is wax based and the carrier it uses is Heptane, which is volatile, but due to that it quickly evaporates so is fast and easy to use.

WD-40 is not an oil or much of a lubricant. It is considered a solvent and best for cleaning and removing lubricants, grease, dirt buildup due to oils mixing with dirt (like on motorcycle chains), or can even be used for degreasing dirty engines and parts. It will like oils float if water gets on it allowing water to get under it and even though it looks like it is still protecting metal will rust under the coating. LOTS of people think it is an oil and swear by it, but it has very little lubrication properties.

I use Ballistol for weapons, but have never tried it on knives.

One more problem I recently encountered is that Buffalo Horn here where I am at will crack. I think it has to do with it being more like hair as they say it has lots of carotene in it? Hopefully not as much of an issue in higher humidity areas? It seems to dry out here in the desert, and of course I too used vitamin pack desiccants in with each knife so that probably did not help out to much as it probably further dried them out? At least the buffalo horned ones did not rot out like celluloid but they will now still need to be re-handled.