3 knives..................3 questions

Karnack 2000 · Post by **Karnack 2000** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:16 pm

Please note, I haved removed the original pics of the first two knives. There are more detailed close-ups father down in the post. I keep getting errors trying to load the better pics on this post.

Newbie to the forum. I have been collecting knives since I was a boy. In last five years I have really been bitten by the bug. I have an Army Navy store and several collectors come in and I buy and trade with them.

I am going to attach some pics. Please respond if you can help.

The first knife is a Utica stamped, cattle knife(?), with gold sparkle handles. The tang stamp is as follows.

UTICA
Cutlery Co.
UTICA, NY
Made in the U.S.A.

I was told it was a kutmaster reproduction. It is near mint w/o box (Near mint may be a stretch, it has some pocket wear. Very Good condition, nonetheless). If anybody can tell from the pic, I would like to know the year of mfg. and origin.

The second knife is a Case Tested XX. The blades are carbon steel. I have been told that it is Circa. 1920's or earlier, which matches the book ID on the tang stamp, but the question concerns the handle material. The seller swears that the handles are genuine tortoise shell. They are definately natural material, because you can see pores in the material and the pattern is very irregular. The handle material is very shiny. Is there any sure way to determine the difference between bone and T. Shell? I have seen many imitation shell handles, and this is very different from those. Any help is appreciated.

The third knife is an Old Timer with carbon blades, but the main blade is stamped John Primble Belknap, INC U.S.A. Is this a mash-up of two knives or an original contract knife.

You guys seem to know your stuff, any help is appreciated.

I can post other pics, but the close-up of the tang stamps were blurry.

Thanks............
Kev.......

stockman · Post by **stockman** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:31 pm

Karnack, I could not see first pic well enough to tell much, the case tested did not look like the handles were the same on the front and back, also they did not look like tortiose to me, back look like it was bone of some shade of red, front look dark, maybe it is just your pics.

Stockman

Karnack 2000 · Post by **Karnack 2000** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:18 pm

I will try to take better pics today and repost. On the case tested, the front scale is a little darker than the back (the camera flash exaggerated the red on the back pic), but looks like the same material, also the shield is poorly set in the material, which is uncharacteristic of a modern case, and may be a red flag of a re-handle job. I haven't seen enough of the older case knives to have a reference point to work from.

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:09 pm

looking at the shield, you're right. badly installed. probably re handled. can you see inside the liners? shield should be pinned.

Karnack 2000 · Post by **Karnack 2000** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:29 pm

The shield is pinned. One pin is present, the other is missing, just a hole, no pin.

Here are some better pics of the Utica and the Case.........

nmikash · Post by **nmikash** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:00 am

Welcome to the forum. It looks like no one has touched the Old Timer question so I'll take a stab at it. I believe that Schrade made knives on contract for Primble/Belknap so this knife is most likely authentic, if I'm correct. Blades look proper for an Ulster Old Timer model 58OT although the main blade was poorly sharpened or reworked at the tip. An interesting find no less.

Nick

stockman · Post by **stockman** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:37 am

Hello Kev, Much better pics, the shield is not correct for the tested era. This knife appears to be a 18 pattern case in pretty average condition. It is possible that the shield was lost and this one installed on the old handles. If it was rehandled it has been used alot to get the amount of wear it has on the handles.

Stockman

muskrat man · Post by **muskrat man** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:44 am

nmikash wrote:Welcome to the forum. It looks like no one has touched the Old Timer question so I'll take a stab at it. I believe that Schrade made knives on contract for Primble/Belknap so this knife is most likely authentic, if I'm correct. Blades look proper for an Ulster Old Timer model 58OT although the main blade was poorly sharpened or reworked at the tip. An interesting find no less.

Nick

Nick is right, I have one of the belknap old timers aswell, it is correct, ulster also made one on the same pattrn for the old timer prince albert tin knives I belive the model was a 58OT

Karnack 2000 · Post by **Karnack 2000** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:19 pm

I appreciate all the input. I was always aware that the case shield looked a little buggered, so that answers one question I had in the back of my mind. The other that I can't put a finger on is what the handle scales are made of. If any one can tell from the pics, let me know.

On the Primble, I asked many knife traders about it and nobody had seen one before, so I'm glad you guys could finger it for me.

No one seems to want to touch the UTICA knife. I looked up in my book, and the UTICA stamp was discontinued in 1937, when the company was acquired by Kutmaster. The gold sparkle handles and the mediocre production quality seem to match with what the book says about UTICA's knives, and it did come out of an elderly gentleman's collection, but it is in awfully good shape to be a 70 or 80 year old knife. If any one has any information or knowledge about UTICA knives, let me in on it.

Thanks.........
Kev........

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:57 pm

sorry, the utica looked like the real thing to me. nice old knife.

muskrat man · Post by **muskrat man** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:35 pm

The case handles look like bone to me.
I have an old utica as well, they are old, must have been well taken care of. And being a lower quality knife when they were made, I can't really see anyone bothering to counterfiet one

petesknives · Post by **petesknives** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:55 pm

Is that a generally accepted belief that Utica was of a lower quality knife grade? I have some fine examples in my collection. I guess its what one would compare them to. Ken

jonet143 · Post by **jonet143** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:57 pm

i think lower priced would better describe their early knives. they are quality knives.