CASE 70's dot dating system and hidden dots

[zp4ja]

Looking for some constructive opinions please (but hey, it is a free country, post what you want unless the mods have issue with it, won't bother me any).

The CASE dotting system started in 1970' was well received by collectors as I have read and understand it for dating knives to a specific year instead of multi-year era as was previously done. One caveat is that due to frugality, a leftover blade from say 1974' could have been used in a 75' or 76' knife of the same pattern and handle material unless the knife pattern was discontinued in 74'. So not an exact science but get you in the ballpark closer than a 20~ year era if you don't have access to inventory or price lists, etc to try to narrow year of production down further.

So speaking of "exact science", here is my question and related required explanation...

I think this conversation is limited to the 70's based on subsequent era’s dots like the 80's and 90's located higher up on the tang stamp.
There are patterns that are 70's dotted that the bolster, frame or swing guard obscures the view of how many dots are actually there. There are various patterns where determining definitively how many dots are actually present on the tang based on this. Some patterns like the CASE 11-1/2L, it seems to be a matter of whether or not a knife example maybe an 8, 9 or possibly 10 dot due to the swing guard. Also, I have a M279 SS that was made throughout the 70’s that I can see one dot on the right side of the tang. The 62131 Canoe can also see a bear to see how many dots no matter what the blade position. I know there are other patterns were this is applicable also. Possibly some knives of same pattern and year had the stamp struck higher on the tang and are not obscured.

So how the dots were removed as I know based on conversation with a couple of CASE experts…
Except for the CASE Sodbuster, the dots were removed from the left, right, right, left, left, right, right, etc, in that order. Dot count estimation relative to the location of the “U.S.A” is just that, purely estimation, in my opinion. Not definitive or an exact science. I posted a few opinions/examples on this thread about this subject.
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... 66&t=41758
On a knife with possibly obscured dots, the only definitive way to determine how many dots it has is to disassemble the knife, in my opinion. Pure speculation or estimation otherwise, IMO.
“CASE always centered the dots when they removed one”, I have heard many times and I firmly disagree. I have examined enough knives on various patterns to know this not to be true. I provided clear examples in the post link above and can provide more. I think I recall I have a 2 dot 78’ knife somewhere where one dot is on either side of the tang, could be wrong, will try to locate it..
I would love to hear opinions, constructive input, research, findings, and most importantly, PICTURES, etc on this question as it pertains to all CASE 70’s patterns with “possibly hidden dots”. I personally as well as many other CASE 11-1/2 collectors whom have contacted me, would love to know how to determine definitively whether a CASE 6111-1/2L with 8 dots showing is an 8 or 9 dot without pulling the swing guard.
Regards, Jerry
PS: Sorry for the lengthy post but some questions/post require explanation, findings based on research and background. MS Word says 616 words for those who like to keep track, not including my signature.

[btrwtr]

Jerry.

I have a 6111 1/2 that is either an 8 or 9 dot knife. I've looked at it until crossed eyed and can't tell. My dance card is full for the next few days but as I can make time I am going to remove the guard and photo this knife as I am curious to find the answer. I'll be posting here with the pics both before and after. We'll be one step closer to an answer at that point.

Wayne

[zp4ja]

Hey Wayne,

Thanks so much for the input. If you would like to pull the guard and post pics, I would greatly appreciate it because as you said, one step toward figuring this mystery out for guys like me that were not born with xrays eyes that can see thru swing guards and bolsters to definitively determine the amount of dots on a knife.

Regards my friend, Jerry

I also posted a thread in the "Want Ads" forum looking for beater 11-1/2L swing guards with 8 dots showing to remove the guard, compare stamps to other examples, etc. My assumption (also obviously not an exact science or definitive) is that all the CASE 11-1/2L swing guards that were made in the same year MAY OR MAY NOT have been struck by the same stamp, even on the same pattern type. Stamps did break and wear and had to be changed out only when totally unusable, especially on older CASE knives. Also, one has to factor in my opinion, double strikes and light versus deeper stamp strikes when you are comparing them. The same stamp can be look vastly different depending on the strike.

Look forward to more CASE 70's dotted collector's input on this post. I have seen numerous posts regrading "how many dots" before. I assume that Wayne and I are not the only interested parties on this topic, on ALL affected CASE patterns where hidden dots are an issue, not just the 11-1/2L.

Please allow me to break down the goal of this post in one question to all the 70's dotted CASE collectors out there...

So you are trying to fill out all knives in a CASE pattern, year, handle type, etc that may or may not have obscured dots that exist or don't for whatever reason. Do you just take the seller definitive, "Yes it is an 8 dot" and be happy with it and drive on without explanantion or definitive proof? Hell, I might even settle for some information as to extended research on numerous examples as a baseline at the very least. Sorry but no matter how bad I would like to fill that collection out, I am personally not going there. Just my opinion. I would feel more comfortable with a baseline from research rather than estimation myself and I have yet to see that!

For example, like all the swing guards that were pulled on the 71' Cheetahs to see if an 8 dot was ever made, in addition to all the CASE employee interviews and research. Not one found yet, all had 9 dots. There may be one out there, who knows.
Sorry but no matter how bad I would like to fill that collection out, I am personally not going there. Just my opinion.

I have yet to see an article on this subject, please point me in that direction if one exists.

Regards, Jerry

[Ramrod]

Gary, you OK?



Snap out of it.

[zp4ja]

Well, there you have it folks! In case you have not hovered overed Gary's emoticon reply, that means "Melodramatic". I guess clearly and concisely stating opinion, research, findings and questions is melodramatic to some. This all from someone that collects 10 dot knives and has been described as having "10 dot expertise" on the linked post. The response does not bother me in the least, just pointing out the obvious to some. I would have hoped some more constructive input from someone that has an vested intereseted in the OP under discussion but hey, maybe I am just an optimist. Maybe against my better judgement, I wlil just post emoticons only from now on when a person has a question. Seems like less work but may not be appropriate for the job.

Regards, Jerry

[zp4ja]

A few dotted knife pics. All pics have model/year on pic footer and of course on these models, all dots are visible to count. Pics should expand when clicked once or twice.
So I will concentrate on the the "all dots were centered when one was removed" argument first.
Not too much study thus far with anything definitive or as a trend besides all dots where not centered as one was removed, with interestingly (but not surprisingly) some exceptions. Still a work in progress...

Pic 1: 1971' 5347 HP SSP. 9 dots not centered.
Pic 2: 1970' 6347 PE. Notice both pic 2 and 3 are 10 dots, one has SS stamp, other does not. Dot location in relation to U.S.A. is different than pic 3.
Pic 3: 1970' 6347 HP SSP. Dot location as described in pic 2 is understandable at this point. Both appear centered though.
Pic 4: Two 1977' 11-1/2L, one SS Stamp on a Blue Scroll knife where dots are centered, one non SS bone where dots are not centered. Interesting in my opinion.
Pic 5: A 1977' Blue Scroll 5347 HP SSP. 3 dots centered just like the 11-1/2LSSP in pic 4.
Pic 6: Another 1977' Blue Scroll 5233 and the dots are not centered like the previous 2 Blue Scroll 77' knives in pic 4 and 5. Of course a much smaller tang so obviously a different stamp was used. I just find it real interesting that CASE would center the dots on a 77' stamp of 2 knives in a series but not the other.
Of course the series contained 6 other knives in the non engraved set and only 8 total in the engraved. I may have some of those but I only have so many 70's dotted knives to do this so any help will be appreciated.

Regards, Jerry

[btrwtr]

Jerry,

What do you think of the possibility of Case grinding off the dots on some of the stamps so that they could be used to following year? The fact that companies did not waste or throw out stamps the became worn has already been discussed elsewhere on AAPK. What was to keep Case from simply grinding off dots on the stamp so that could continue to be used? To me it sounds like a logical and cost effective thing to do. This would result in "off center" dots.

I would also guess that new stamps were indeed made when old stamps became too worn to use. For an odd number year this could result in dots being "on center". The combination of new stamps for odd years and old even number dot stamps with dots ground off could then result in stamps with both "on center" and "off center" dots for odd number years.

I'm not saying this did happen. Just saying that it could be.

Wayne

[btrwtr]

Here is the Case 8 or 9 dot 6111 1/2 is was discussing earlier. I took the guard off to find out the real deal. It turns out that it is a 1971 vintage 9 dot knife. The dots are obviously not centered. It appears that a dot was removed from the far left when compared to a 10 dot on center stamp.

Wayne

[zp4ja]

Jerry,

What do you think of the possibility of Case grinding off the dots on some of the stamps so that they could be used to following year? The fact that companies did not waste or throw out stamps the became worn has already been discussed elsewhere on AAPK. What was to keep Case from simply grinding off dots on the stamp so that could continue to be used? To me it sounds like a logical and cost effective thing to do. This would result in "off center" dots.

I would also guess that new stamps were indeed made when old stamps became too worn to use. For an odd number year this could result in dots being "on center". The combination of new stamps for odd years and old even number dot stamps with dots ground off could then result in stamps with both "on center" and "off center" dots for odd number years.

I'm not saying this did happen. Just saying that it could be.

Wayne

Hello Wayne,
Thanks much for the input! I do agree/speculate that CASE would indeed reuse a stamp due to frugality by grinding off a dot if the stamp was still usable for the next year's stamp pattern, assuming it was a match less the one ground off dot. Kind of like a perfectly good integrity but dull shovel, does one throw it away and buy a new one or take the time to sharpen it? Also, I agree, if a stamp was too worn for a given pattern's tang size or required stamp, would the new stamp look identical to the replaced one? I don't think so personally. It is definitively not an easy thing to figure out but I think alot can be learned from knives that have all dots exposed and the differences that may exist there. May not be definitive at any point though.
Regards my friend, Jerry

PS to all in the forum: Does anyone here think that every era or year stamp that was made in all different tang stamp sizes were made identical down to the millionth, thousandths, hundredths, or even 1/32" inch tolerances in dot locations, character spacing, stamp depth, location on stamp in regards to tang centering top to bottom or left to right, etc? Yes, sounds like a stupid question, does it not?
I personally think not but I respect differing opinions. CASE was not making parts for the now retired Space Shuttle that required that amount of tolerances. The were branding knives which was only aesthetic and date reference to the tool/knife and did not affect performance where tight tolerances were required. Without tight tolerances, variations do exist, in my opinion.

Regards, Jerry

[zp4ja]

Here is the Case 8 or 9 dot 6111 1/2 is was discussing earlier. I took the guard off to find out the real deal. It turns out that it is a 1971 vintage 9 dot knife. The dots are obviously not centered. It appears that a dot was removed from the far left when compared to a 10 dot on center stamp.

Wayne

Another great post Wayne! Thanks for pulling the guard on that one and the pics. Great contribution for the overall thread for sure.

I have limited time at the moment but will respond in an appropriate fashion when I have time. I really appreciate you pulling that guard for the cause. Nice confirmed 9 dot you have there! And first dot removed from the left and not centered as you stated and I had heard from experts and observed on most examples (EDIT:) of knives where all dots are visible.

Thanks again, Jerry

[zp4ja]

So in addition to Wayne's knife (Thanks again for doing that my friend), another member "Philll" (thanks much also Phil) PM'd me with his grandfather's knife that is also a 9 dot that has a missing guard.

I see some distinct similarities in the stamps. I will withhold my thoughts and observations for now as to not skew opinion beyond saying that Wayne's, Phil's and Mr. Blister's knife ( http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... 66&t=41758 ) appear to be struck by the same stamp in my opinion. Hopefully others will chime in with what they see as the input will be greatly appreciated in possibly solving the mystery, although it may never be solved.

That being said, Wayne and Phil's knife are definitively 9 dots but Mr. Blister's knife in my opinion is still not definitive as far as an 8 or a 9 dot. The guard would have to be removed to determine that for sure. Why is that my opinion? Simply because assuming so would be like using dot estimation relative to their stamp characters, not definitive to me at this point as I said, just estimation not exact science like having the guard removed to count the dots like Wayne and Phil's knives. Especially since I agree with Wayne on one point as a possibility but again, not proven theory...
If in fact that CASE ground a dot off a still usable stamp to use on the 72' 11-1/2L, who knows. I agree due to frugality, they would not tossed a now outdated perfectly good stamp in the trash. Just like the used leftover blades from say a 73' knife that was actually assembled in 74' or 75'. The 70's number 1 and 2 stags sets are a prime example of that. Came out in 73' and 76' with 10 and 9 dots blades probably due to the stag shortage or embargo.

So now the pics...

Pic 1 and 2 are Wayne's ( may be better seen in a earlier post).
Pic 3 and 4 are Phil's knife.
Pic 5 is my shoddy attempt at a side by side comparison. Left side is Phil's with red line to estimate guard location which certainly would obscure the 9th dot. Middle is Wayne's knife guard on, right side is Wayne's knife guard removed and I provided the link to Mr. Blister's knife.

Any thoughts? I will add more pics and observations later as that is enough to digest for now.

BTW, we are not just talking about CASE 11-1/2L and Cheetah as you know. I mentioned the 70s' Canoe 131 pattern in my OP. A valued member posted one the other day, absolutely no dots visible at all. Canoe etch that they started using in 74'. So this knife maybe be a 74' thru 79' knife. Quite a year range if you ask me. He realizes that since no dots are visible, mystery as to what year between 74' and 79'.

Anyone still holding on to the dots relative to USA estimation as a definitive method? I agree maybe "ballpark" but not "definitive". The jury is still out...

Regards, Jerry

[btrwtr]

Jerry,

It would be good to have someone with first hand knowledge chime in here.

It is hard for me to imagine why Case, or any other company would make a new stamp that was asymmetrical and off center like the two nine dot stamps shown above. Nearly any stamp you look at regardless of manufacturer is on center and great lengths are taken to produce a stamp that is symmetrical and aesthetically pleasing. I have seen many stamps that were poorly struck and off center of tang but the stamps themselves are symmetrical. Given that it is easier for me to think that these 9 dot stamps could have had a dot ground off than it is to think they were designed that way.

I really have no idea of what Case actually did but thinking practically that is what I would imagine could have happened.

Wayne

[zp4ja]

Jerry,

It would be good to have someone with first hand knowledge chime in here.

It is hard for me to imagine why Case, or any other company would make a new stamp that was asymmetrical and off center like the two nine dot stamps shown above. Nearly any stamp you look at regardless of manufacturer is on center and great lengths are taken to produce a stamp that is symmetrical and aesthetically pleasing. I have seen many stamps that were poorly struck and off center of tang but the stamps themselves are symmetrical. Given that it is easier for me to think that these 9 dot stamps could have had a dot ground off than it is to think they were designed that way.

I really have no idea of what Case actually did but thinking practically that is what I would imagine could have happened.

Wayne

I agree on all points Wayne. Besides to add that in the old days of CASE, TESTED era and prior, the stamps were far from perfect as you well know. That horse has been dead awhile and beaten too many times so I will leave it at that.

Personally surprised that not one other CASE collector besides you and I has input on this subject or at the very least a knife pic to post. What the hell do I know though.

Regards, Jerry

[zp4ja]

Here is another example of seperated dots on a 1978' knife, not the first I have seen like this either.


There are also obviously 2 dot examples where the dots are right next to each other as expected.

On the pictured example, if only one dot on either side was visible based on the bolster obscuring all dots being seen, I would venture to say that dot location in relation to location of letters in U.S.A would be inaccurate in dating this knife. Estimation on any knife in my opinion as I have said.

No one else out there has a CASE dotted knife that would be relevant to the subject of this thread???

Jerry

[Slowride66]

I have a couple stamped like that. I'll try to get pics up.

[zp4ja]

Here are a couple of 10 dots. The first pic with the guard removed was on the internet. The remaining pics are of my CASE swing guards. On my knives, all 10 dots ARE visible, even with the guard. Including on my 10 Dot Cheetah Proto. My pics enlarge with double mouse clicks.

After seeing the 9 dot knife Wayne posted with guard removed and Phil's 9 dot with the missing guard, it tends to prove what I have been told and observed that except for the CASE Sodbuster, the dots were removed from the left, right, right, left, left, right, etc in that order.

Now, I just need to find an 8 dot Cheetah or 2 with removed guard for comparison.

All, please chip in to this post with pics and points of view if possible. Hidden dot knives have puzzled many collectors besides myself I am sure.

Regards, Jerry

[wlf]

Just found this thread. 1st is my 10dot 11 1/2 Hard to get the dots with a scanner,you need the camera angle and light.It's hard, but until my eyes cross all 10 dots can be seen.

It matches my 10 dot 80.

[wlf]

Here's an 8 dot,or that's what I was told by the son of the collector ,from his Dad's notes.