WW2 Electrician's Knives

[Private Lugnutz]

Hi all,

I am a WW2 gear and tools collector with some questions about subject above. Reaching out across communities with the hope that the subject matter experts here can help resolve or clarify the ambiguities that exist about this knife.

The Army's electrician's knife had part number 41-K-370. Early TM specs didn't say much more than "electrician's" until July 44, when they specified a closed length of 3-5/8 inches. TM illustrations show two blades (main and wirestripper with flat screwdriver tip) and a bail on the pommel, with a small "U.S. ARMY" marking on one side. Wooden scales are assumed.

Some of the confusion is caused by the TL-29. This is the best known and most widely available example of an electrician's knife, but it's a US Army Signal Corps designation, and a Signal Corps knife. Every second echelon General Mechanic's Tool-Set in the Army had an electrician's knife in it, and those were not issued by the Signal Corps, and would not bear the TL-29 marking.

Has anyone ever seen a "TL-29" type knife (again, "electrician's knife" is actually the correct name) with "U.S. ARMY" marked on it from any of the big known WW2 knife/edged weapons suppliers (e.g., CAMILLUS, KUTMASTER, etc)?

Thanks.

[jerryd6818]

Welcome aboard Pvt. Grab a rack, stow your gear and report for duty.

Very interesting question and though I don't have any information for you, I'll be standing in the wings, waiting patiently with a great deal of interest to see what the responses are.

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks for the welcome, Jerry. (In hindsight, perhaps I should've given myself more rank... My latrine detail days are long past... )

[knife7knut]

Welcome to the forum.Here is my Signal Corps kit with 4 line Camillus knife and Utica pliers type TL-13A.

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks, knife7knut. I am familiar with the TL-29/TL-13/CS-34 Signal Corps set - and yours is a very nice example. But my inquiry pertains exclusively to Non-Signal Corps (therefore, non-"TL-29" marked) electrician's knives.

All,

As I alluded to in my first post, the Ordnance Department, which was responsible for all hand tools, issued one (1) electrician’s knife (41-K-370) with every GMTK, which was issued to every second echelon motor vehicle mechanic in the Army. That’s thousands of electrician’s knives.

Here is the page containing the electrician’s knife from the Standard Nomenclature List (SNL), ORD 6, G-27, dated July 1944, for the GMTK:


Here is a figure from that same SNL - also used in a later version (July 1945) - showing a picture of the knife with the “U.S. ARMY” stamping in the scale.


And here is a photo of an electrician’s knife made by PAL, marked “U.S. ARMY” on the scale:


I am trying to find out if any of the other major knife manufacturers (e.g., CAMILLUS, SCHRADE, ROBESON, etc) known for providing the same exact type/pattern/style of knife to the Signal Corps for TL-29 distribution, provided them to the Ordnance Department for GMTK distribution.

Have any of you CAMILLUS, SCHRADE, KUTMASTER etc collectors/experts ever seen one? Have they been in circulation?

[Miller Bro's]

Ka-Bar made one marked U.S. Army impressed into the wood handle.

[ozzie marie]

I know I've seen one but I can't remember ware

I believe it was an Ulster or Kingston

Keith

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks, Keith and Miller Bros! Much appreciated.

[orvet]

Has anyone ever seen a "TL-29" type knife (again, "electrician's knife" is actually the correct name) with "U.S. ARMY" marked on it from any of the big known WW2 knife/edged weapons suppliers (e.g., CAMILLUS, KUTMASTER, etc)?

Thanks.

Here is an excellent example I just got off ebay a day or 2 ago, I have not even received the knife in the mail yet. These are the seller's pics.

The tang stamp dates this knife to 1946 or earlier. At the end of WWII (early in 1946, IIRC) Camillus changed the tang stamp to a 3-line stamp dropping the word “CUTLERY.”

Camillus also made one with ‘TL-29’ hot stamped into the black composite handle, circa the 1960s.

[orvet]

You may be interested in this as well.
It is a list of the electrician knives, both TL-29, non Signal Corps knives and civilian knives.
It includes both the earlier design, 3-3/8" TL-29 and the later 3-3/4" version that the Signal Corps adopted in the early 1930s.

1 Boker
2 Camillus
3 Camco
4 Case
5 Cattaraugus
6 Challenge
7 Colonial
8 Craftsman
9 Electric Mate (Prov Cut. Co.)
10 Empire
11 FD (Sears)
12 AE Fuller
13 Holub
14 Imperial
15 Jensen
16 Ka Bar
17 Keen Kutter
18 Kingston
19 Kutmaster
20 Klein Tools
21 M. Klein & Sons
22 Miller Bros. U.S.A.
23 OK (Ontario Knife)
24 Pal
25 Powr-Kraft
26 John Primble #47
27 Proto
28 Prov. Cut. Co.
29 Queen
30 Red Devil
31 Remington
32 Ric-Nor -made by Prov. Cut. Co.
33 Robeson
34 Robeson Shuredge
35 SCC (Schrade)
36 Schatt & Morgan
37 Schrade Cut Co
38 Schrade Imperial
39 Schrade Walden
40 Sears
41 Ulster
42 Union Cut. Co.
43 Utica
44 Western
45 Winchester
46 No Name


I have all of these in my collection except for the Schatt & Morgan, Winchester, & Red Devil.

You might enjoy looking at the "TL-29 Electricians Knives" thread.
You can find it at: http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... =35&t=2659

Incidentally, I still have the electricians knife (TL-29 type) issued to me in the Marine Corps about 1971.
I was an Aviation Mechanic.

[trail]

Those U.S. Army ones must be comparatively rare. I just looked through my collection of 30 or so knives and found several "TL-29" and lots of unmarked ones, but no U.S. Army.

[Private Lugnutz]

Dale - Thanks for the TL-29 list and thread link. Nice badged TL-29, too, but it's the scarcer 'US ARMY' marked electrician's knives I am interested in. If you have any of those in your extensive collection I would love to see them.

EDIT: Just read through the entire TL-29 thread. Nice knives and alot of good info, to incl the photo of the US ARMY marked KA-BAR mentioned above, and the C. Houston Price/Zalesky book citation/link. According to the authors, KA-BAR and PAL stamped handles US ARMY, with no TL-29 marking. ULSTER and CAMILLUS had knives handle-stamped U.S.N. and U.S.M.C.

I have a RED DEVIL hacksaw and putty knife in my 1944 vintage GMTK - sure wish they made US ARMY handle-stamped elec knives. It would make a nice brand match.

Trail - That's been my conclusion so far. I was hoping to turn a few up in collections here, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Although it's good to see some guys remembering seeing them...

[trail]

Lug, did you see the one in the TL-29 thread that's marked U.S 12852 on the shield? I wonder if that is an Army-issue knife.

Its on page 5 of the thread

http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... =35&t=2659

[trail]

Also on the same thread, a Ka-Bar stamped US Army, page 7

[Private Lugnutz]

I saw them both. Thanks. Very excited to see the KA-BAR. The shield stamp throws me. My first inkling was pre-war - as it seems that most of the TL-29 type knives with shields stamped with anything other than TL-29 on the shield were older. But those scales don't look older.

It looks to me as if PAL and KA-BAR may have provided all the US ARMY handle-stamped knives for GMTK's. (Conversely, it looks like CAMILLUS and ULSTER had Navy and USMC contracts...)

[jerryd6818]

The Ka-Bar name became synonymous with the MK-2 but Camillus probably made as many or possibly more than Ka-Bar. (not all during WWII) I didn't realize until I joined this forum that over the years, Camillus made a ton of military knives.

[Private Lugnutz]

Quick PS - Can someone tell me about ATCO (over) ITALY? I've seen WW2-era elec knives by that maker. US company in Italy? Italian company during the US Occupation? I don't get it.

[orvet]

You should probably get Mike Silvey's book; "Pocket Knives of the US Military."
It is a great book and he has pics of most of the military folders.
Knife World has it in their book sales section of their website: http://www.knifeworld.com/pocknivofuns.html

It is well worth the $25 just for the TL-29 pics alone, besides Mike is a super nice guy and very helpful when you have questions.
I think you will enjoy the book!

[Private Lugnutz]

I have that and the Price book on my list.

[orvet]

Here are two knives with "TL-29" stamped into the wooden handles.
It is hard to see the marking on the handle of the top knife in this pic, but it is easy to see in person.
The top knife is an Ulster with the serif letters on the tang stamp. It may have been made before Albert Baer bought Ulster in January of 1941. If not I think it is made early in the 1940s.

The stamping on the handle is easy to see in the middle knife, which is a Schrade Cut Co.
It was made prior to 1946, as the tang stamp was changed to Schrade Walden in 1946, after Albert Baer bought Schrade Cut Co and renamed it.

The bottom knife is a Challenge, definitely pre-WWII as Challenge when out of business in 1928.
It does not have the "TL-29" stamp, but I think the shield is also US Army.

If the TL-29 marking is unique to the Army, then as you can see Ulster and Schrade Cut Co also made knives for them.

[Private Lugnutz]

Hi Dale --

The Challenge is very intriguing. That company name and shield stamp is not in the C. Houston Price book linked in the other thread, even for WW1 and pre-WW2 electrician's knives. (I don't have a copy of the Silvey book.)

As for the TL-29 designation, I think we are still talking past each other...

The TL-29 marking is unique to the US Army Signal Corps. The Signal Corps was a branch of the Army during WWII. According to the Price book, Ulster and Schrade are two (2) of eighteen (18) WWII-era suppliers of TL-29s. Schrade made two (2) types: handle stamped and shield stamped. Ulster made four (4) types: wood and composite, handle and blade (tang) stamped.

The "KNIFE, Electrician's" I referenced in great detail above (41-K-370), with supporting documentation, is NOT a Signal Corps knife. It is an Army-wide application, placed in the General Mechanics' Tool-Set kit in every second echelon in the Army. That means every tank division, every infantry division, etc. Every unit that had vehicles with electrical systems to maintain. These are combat arms units, not Signal Corps. I can't emphasize the distinction enough. The "TL-29" has become analogous with "electrician's knife" because of the numbers issued and found, and the designation itself. But it is strictly a Signal Corps item.

The C. Houston Price book does not discuss the 41-K-370. It does indicate/imply in a table, as I stated briefly above, that KA-BAR and PAL made TL-29's without a TL-29 stamping of any kind, with "U.S. ARMY" stamped on the wooden handle instead. (Similarly, again, as I stated briefly above, it indicates that ULSTER and CAMILLUS also made TL-29's without a TL-29 stamping of any kind, with "U.S.N." and U.S.M.C." stamped on the wooden handle instead.)

Frankly, it is my bold assertion that the C. Houston Price book, now in its 15th Edition, has mis-identified those U.S. ARMY, U.S.N, and U.S.M.C. marked electrician's knives as TL-29's without a TL-29 mark. I don't think they were TL-29's at all. This is no small error and distressing to those of us trying to collect electrician's knives that were NOT made for or supplied to the US Army Signal Corps.

FYI - I have contacted Frank Trzaska of the US Military Knives website (with a similar query, providing the same documentation as I have provided heere above), which, as far as I can tell, also fails to make the same distinction.

[orvet]

So, for the sake of clarity, let me restate the issue to see if I understand it;
You maintain that the TL-29 nomenclature (TOOL, LINEMANS, #29) was only used by the US Army Signal Corp and that other services used different nomenclature, as well as within the US Army.

Have I correctly stated your position?

I just want to make sure I am addressing the proper issue.

[Private Lugnutz]

Yes, sort of.

Except that those are the facts, not my position. "TL-29" was a US Army Signal Corps designation. There is no debate about that. And the general service electrician’s knife was Federal Stock Number 41-K-370- as seen in the scans I presented upthread from Army Service Forces Catalog ORD 6 SNL G-27 Section 2, Tools, Maintenance for Repair of Motor Vehicles Section 2 - Tool-Sets (Common), Specialists' and Organizational dated 1 July 1944 - since at least 1943 (the earliest reference I can find, but don't own to scan).

My position is that the knife collecting world seems to have lost sight of the distinction, using "TL-29" for all electrician's knives the way some people use "Kleenex" for facial tissue. Again, this confuses and obscures detail that militaria collectors thrive on.

My hunch-y assertion, based on that position, is that the electrician’s knives considered to be ‘U.S. ARMY’ marked Signal Corps TL-29’s by the authors of the C. Houston Price collector’s guide are really knives that were issued by the ORD to Army mechanics (NOT by the Signal Corps to Signal Corps linemen). I am not a U.S.M.C. or Navy collector, but the book is just flat out wrong in implying that electrician’s knives marked “U.S.M.C.” and “U.S.N.” are “TL-29’s.” In that case, not even the correct service.

In a guest commentary called “Cutlery Classification Categories Catechism” in the “Knife Knotes 11” issue (archived) on Frank Trzaska’s website, http://www.usmilitaryknives.com, noted military knife expert Carter Rila comes close to acknowledging this phenomenon with this statement on “Branch Wide Patterns”:

“The best example of this is the LC14-B Signal Corps issue of WWII. The TL-29 Electrician’s Knife became service wide in WWII when the Marine Corps adopted it. It is now also a GSA item.“

I would have liked to see him refer to other branches of the Army as well. And staying in timeframe, I would’ve liked to see him acknowledge that the GSA grew out of the Federal Stock Number system, and that the electrician’s knife was a “GSA” (GSN, FSN) item during WWII (again, 41-K-370). I’m assuming by inference that the Ordnance Department also adopted the Signal Corps’ electrician’s knife specs for Army general service (for example, again, the GMTK) – although I have seen the closed length of the “TL-29” stated as 3-3/4”, whereas the length of the 41-K-370 is stated as 3-5/8”.

The Silvey book may get it right. I don’t know.

[jerryd6818]

[orvet]

I agree with you, Army nomenclature uses the TL-29 designation for the electricians knife. This is true back to World War I. Mike Silvey documents this in his book "Pocketknives of the United States Military", page 48. There he shows an early style TL-29, made by W. R. Case & Son, with the escutcheon plate bearing the designation "S.C.U.S.A." Beneath that on the escutcheon plate is also "TL-29". He further states, "I believe this is the earliest use of this identification of a knife as Tool for Linemen-29."

I believe you are correct that the TL-29 nomenclature has been adopted as a generic name for the electrician knife. I also agree that a little details like this are the minutia that is so dearly loved by collectors. These minute details make a great deal of difference in the values of knives. However, I am not sure that you are going to be able to prove your point, as many of the details are probably lost in obscurity. However, I did a little research on some records I have from Camillus. Tom Williams, the Camillus Company Historian (and 30 year employee of Camillus Cutlery) shared these records with me. This may help prove your point.

The first is a Xerox copy of a document entitled: "Principal Items Delivered to Armed Forces during World War II from 1941 to 1946 By Camillus Cutlery Co."

As you look down the left-hand column you see the item numbers of the knives that were made; #57A37, #57J94 & #57L49. When you look in the middle column you find the description; "Signal C. Elec. Knives" and in the right-hand column you find the quantity made listed as 2,183,136. So, between 1941 in 1946 Camillus made over 2 million TL-29 type electricity knives for various branches of the military.

The second page are some notes on the description & specifications of the TL-29 electricians knife. Notice the descriptions match the same numbers we found under the description on the first page.

The third page is actually the back side of the previous page. At the top it says USES and it shows that these knives were used by the Signal Corps, Marines, Engineers, Quartermaster, and Navy.

The fourth page is dated 10/27/43 and it is the USMC electricians knife. In the top right corner under the heading: U. S. Marine Corps list the government number as TL-29 electricians knife and then it was Camillus is number 57L49. In the note under the word DESCRIPTION: the 57L49 is described as "same as used for signal Corps but shield reading USMC instead of TL29. All steel."

On the second sheet is the description for the knives of 57L49. The handle is stamped TL-29 and has no shield. On the fourth page it says the Marine Corps knife (also described as 57L49) has a shield reading USMC instead of TL-29. Camillus’ internal numbers for both knives are the same. The government number they have listed is TL-29.
It is evident to me that “TL-29” (the U.S. Army Signal Corps nomenclature) was by 1943, (the date on that sheet), being used to denote other non-Signal Corp versions of the knife; in this case a knife made for the Marine Corps. Even at this early date “TL-29” had become a generic name for the military style electricians knife.



Now, I wish to address the observation you made earlier in this thread in the quote below:

It looks to me as if PAL and KA-BAR may have provided all the US ARMY handle-stamped knives for GMTK's. (Conversely, it looks like CAMILLUS and ULSTER had Navy and USMC contracts...)

In looking at my own collection of TL-29 and the ones shown in Mike Silvey's book I think you may be correct that Pal and Kabar made most of the knives that were marked U.S. Army and Ulster, Camillus and Cattaraugus (seen in Silvey's book) may have made most of the knives marked US Navy and USMC. However, it is apparent to me from the information out of the Camillus factory that the Camillus knives were made for the Army Engineers, Quartermaster Corps, and the U.S. Army Signal Corps, as well as the Marine Corps and Navy.



One other thing I wanted to ask you about is the sizes of the TL-29s in your collection. The three sizes I have are; 3-1/2 inches, 3-5/8 inches and 3-3/4 inches. I was wondering if your collection follows these sizes or if you have other sizes in your collection?