Ebay is your friend

[knifeaholic]

I have made a few thousand ebay purchases, i.e. i have paid ebay a lot of money in 'fees'. If i ever manage to communicate with a seller and complete a purchase directly i would not see this as a serious transgression. The challenge is in contacting the seller other than through the ebay message system. If there is a way, i don't know it.
kj

The only way to do it successfully is to make a jpeg image of your direct email address, and send it as an attachment via an Ebay message. I have done it successfully.

[Shearer]

I have made a few thousand ebay purchases, i.e. i have paid ebay a lot of money in 'fees'. If i ever manage to communicate with a seller and complete a purchase directly i would not see this as a serious transgression. The challenge is in contacting the seller other than through the ebay message system. If there is a way, i don't know it.
kj

You cannot send email address through Ebay.
It a bit stupid because if you purchase a item and pay by PayPal you get the seller's email address.
Use a bit of a code.
Send it in a few messages and forget the @
Most emails in USA end .com
If the mail is hotmail:the mail is hot.
If the seller is interest they will soon work it out.
I don't care what eBay thinks as it offers Global Shipping than blocks buyers from bidding and forgets to tell the sellers( I know how to get around this one but that's another story ).

Grant

[QTCut5]

Take a picture of your phone number and simple say "do this if you want to sell your knife" send them that message withe the picture of your phone number

That's pretty much how I did it; however, the first time I tried that I just sent a photo of my business card and nothing else and I actually got a very nasty letter from eBay threatening to "suspend my privileges" if I continued to "break the rules." Apparently they censor the photos as well as the text. The way that worked best for me was to take a picture of one of my own knives with a business card showing my contact info in the background. If it's too obvious, it could draw the attention of the censors; so, the main object in the photo needs to be something else. The message to the seller was something like, "I'm interested in buying the knife you had listed. If you still want to sell it, please let me know. (See card in photo.)" Even better still, send three or four nearly identical photos but only put the business card in the next to last one.

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

picture phone number.
thanks !
kj

[QTCut5]

I could give two figs about eBay's arbitrary "rules". I don't feel like I'm compromising my integrity in the least by "breaking" them. Their "rules" have nothing to do with honesty or integrity. They're just trying to cover their rear ends and besides, it's ALL ABOUT THE MONEY so they can go take a flying leap, I just do what is right for me.

It seems to me that most contracts are ALL ABOUT THE MONEY, so how does that justify one party breaking their end of the agreement? I guess the reason that I have to respectfully disagree with you on this point, jerryd, is because eBay requires every user to agree, i.e., promise, to abide by their rules before they are allowed to buy or sell on the eBay platform. You may not like their rules or feel they are reasonable, but that's beside the point, you are completely free to buy or sell some other way. However, if you promise to follow their rules in order to take advantage of the services they offer, and also agree to pay for those services, then you have essentially made a contract bound by your word. If you don't want to follow their rules or pay their fees, for whatever reason, you really shouldn't promise to do so just to take advantage of their services. That is dishonest and unethical, IMO. You can justify it however you want in order to assuage your conscience, but in the end, "a promise is a promise and a man's integrity is simply the way he behaves when no one is watching and is only as good as his word." (my father's words, not mine)

For reasons which may or may not be obvious, I am very hesitant to submit this post. But I will do so with the following disclaimer: To all who read my comments here, please understand I'm not judging anybody who chooses to break eBay's rules. I have broken them on numerous occasions myself and probably would do so again under certain circumstances and I wouldn't feel the least bit guilty about it either. Perhaps that means I am morally corrupt or lacking in integrity (my father would undoubtedly agree), but everyone can decide that for themselves. I am not "preaching" about honesty and integrity to anyone here, especially since I'm just as culpable of doing the same thing. This discussion is merely a philosophical point that I find fascinating. I enjoy dissecting moral dilemmas. Although, because people tend to have very strong feelings about such things like "right" and "wrong," there's a high risk of offending or taking offense when no offense is intended, particularly in online forums where comments can be easily misinterpreted and innuendos of accusation can be found when none was intended. My apologies in advance to anyone who is offended by my thoughts...that was not my intent. I've said enough, I'll shut up now.

~Q~

[QTCut5]

picture phone number.
thanks !
kj

I actually recommend using your email address. It's amazing how many people fail and/or forget to consider time zone differences when using the phone and will call at inappropriate hours. Email avoids that issue altogether.

~Q~

[Old Hunter]

ebay isn't your friend or your enemy; ebay is a business, specifically they furnish a marketplace for a cut of the money. If ebay rejects an item for sale then you are breaking no ethical rules to find another way to sell it, even to another one of their members - they had first shot and declined. OH

[kootenay joe]

QTCut 5, thanks.
I enjoy reading your posts, always thoughtful and well said. I agree with your post above regarding promise & integrity. What you say is self evident truth, hence i cannot see how it could upset anyone.
kj

[tongueriver]

I agree with all members' comments thus far. I made a .docx document, included two images, printed it, scanned it and at that point had a .jpg. This is my first attempt at coyote undercover shenanigans. Comments welcome.

[philco]

ebay is a necessary evil. That is all I've got to say about that.

[Shearer]

QTCut 5.
I agree with your post above regarding promise & integrity.
This works with companies that have integrity.
Ebay works the system to refund clients who pay through PayPal.( a sister company of eBay )
I notified ebay that there was sellers listed in Australia with Russia and China email address.They were picking name of Australian town off a road maps and list them as their address.
It took over four weeks for eBay to filter these sellers.( I could pick them by their listing and price of items ).
You would pay by PayPal and never receive the items.
PayPal would hold the money from the sellers till the item was delivered.( I don't know what the sellers were getting out of this,maybe trying to find faults in the system ).
After going through the claim system which took about six weeks you would get your money back.Paypal got the use of the money.
How much money was PayPal holding and using while this fraud was going on.
Ebay was at fault for not removing these sellers when notified.

Grant

[QTCut5]

I agree with all members' comments thus far. I made a .docx document, included two images, printed it, scanned it and at that point had a .jpg. This is my first attempt at coyote undercover shenanigans. Comments welcome.
old Schrade catalog cuts001.jpg

You're killin' me, man! Good luck, I sincerely hope it works. Please let us know if it does. I'll be rooting for you. If I were selling something that was summarily pulled down without notice and then received that message from a potential buyer, I wouldn't hesitate to respond with an email to calvinpruett@bresnan.net. Brilliant! Because it's in the photo, I expect your embedded email address will probably get past the censorship algorithms eBay uses for just such purposes. I believe the only way to catch that is by a person actually viewing the photo...and eBay can't possibly employ enough manpower to visually censor every single photo attached to every single message. Now you just have to hope the seller can decode the email and is willing to respond.

Another thing to keep in mind when going rogue and trying to complete a transaction outside the system is the element of trust. If the seller agrees to sell you the knife, he has effectively shown that he is a person who can justify breaking rules or cheating, just like you. Can you really trust someone who is willing to break their promise so readily? What recourse would you have if he were to take your money and not send the knife? That kind of puts you in a situation like the bank robber who gets mugged as he walks out of the bank he just robbed. You were willing to cheat the system and so was he. I'll admit, I have never had that happen to me, everyone who I sent money to did send me the knife. But, as a seller, I have often been surprised at how much money people are willing to send to a total stranger with absolutely no guarantee of getting anything in return. For some reason it's much easier (for me) to justify cheating a big, impersonal, faceless corporation like eBay than another human being, even a total stranger in a far off place, who has placed their trust in me. But, I can't help but wonder if eventually karma will catch up to me...because what goes around, comes around.

~Q~

[zzyzzogeton]

I feel your pain and frustration, Cal, that has happened to me numerous times with ivory knives I was bidding on and wanted very badly. Several years ago I discovered a way around that problem, though, which worked for me (twice) and I was able to get the knives even after the eBay censors had pulled down the listings. It does require that you break an eBay rule regarding sharing contact information and completing transactions outside of eBay, but it can be done if the seller is willing to work with you "under the table" and not report you to the Gestapo. Some people will understandably feel it is dishonest and unethical to break any of eBay's rules regardless of how arbitrary or ridiculous they may seem, and that's hard to refute, so you have to decide just how much it's worth to you. I'm not sure if you intended the title of this thread to be taken ironically, but I actually do feel eBay has been very good to me and helped me collect knives that I would otherwise have no way of getting or even knowing existed. So, even though I have managed to circumvent the rules and get what I wanted in the past, I don't do that anymore and I don't recommend anyone else do it either. You just have to be grateful for the ones that make it through and be prepared and willing to let go of those that don't...it can be frustrating, though. No one likes having a tasty treat or a shiny trinket dangled in front of his nose only to have it snatched away just as he's reaching out to take it.

~Q~

I could give two figs about eBay's arbitrary "rules". I don't feel like I'm compromising my integrity in the least by "breaking" them. Their "rules" have nothing to do with honesty or integrity. They're just trying to cover their rear ends and besides, it's ALL ABOUT THE MONEY so they can go take a flying leap, I just do what is right for me.

I sold a C-Pap mask on eBay. Against the rules. Listed it on Friday, it sold over the weekend. Ebay tried to invalidate the sale because you're not supposed to sell medical supplies. I communicated with the buyer. He wanted it, I wanted to sell it so we soldiered on. Ebay didn't get their cut. Boo Hoo. Urinate on them.

This may diminish me in the eyes of some members. So be it. My conscience is clear.

This is news to me Jerry.

I've bought a bunch of c-pap supplies off fleabay - nose pillows, head straps, air hoses - all of them for a lot less than what the medical supply store sells them for. Never had the fleabay police contact me on them.

[kootenay joe]

When paid with PP the seller can see the buyer's PP email address. For many of us this is also our regular email address. If a seller has a $5-$10 item you can buy that and then seller can contact you directly if he wants to. Will apply to any seller you have purchased from in the past as well.
kj

[QTCut5]

This works with companies that have integrity.
Grant

I can't speak to the situation you described with Russians and Chinese using Australian email addresses...that seems like a very convoluted and complicated plot that makes no sense to me. Other than possibly the interest earned by PayPal from holding large sums of money for a period of time in an interest bearing account of some sort, I can't see what the benefit of such a scheme would be. But, I will say this...Even though I have broken my promise to eBay (many times), eBay has never broken their contract with me...never. I have always gotten either the item I paid for or a full refund. So, as far as I'm concerned, eBay is a company with integrity. YMMV.

~Q~

[QTCut5]

If ebay rejects an item for sale then you are breaking no ethical rules to find another way to sell it, even to another one of their members - they had first shot and declined. OH

Sorry OH, but that is pretzel logic because when you sign up to use eBay you promise not to complete transactions outside of the eBay platform. Finding a buyer or seller is the beginning of a "transaction" since you found that buyer or seller by using eBay's services. Finding another way to sell an item would be like advertising and selling it on AAPK, for example. But, you make an interesting point about what could be considered a gray area with regard to this rule. Consider this scenario which happened to me not too long ago. I had a knife listed on eBay that got a bid by a person whom I just happened to recognize as a fellow AAPK member (he uses the same handle for both eBay and AAPK). I contacted that person through AAPK and mentioned that I noticed he was bidding on my knife. I offered to end the eBay listing and sell it to him for an agreed upon price if he would complete the transaction through AAPK. By so doing, I was able to offer him a better price and keep all the money for myself instead of having to sell it for a higher price and pay a percentage to eBay. For me and the buyer it was a win-win, but I somehow doubt eBay would see it the same way. I'm pretty sure they would feel I violated the rule regarding completing transactions outside of eBay because initially, it was eBay that "connected" the buyer and seller.

Another thing to consider regarding terminated listings: If eBay terminates a listing because it violates their rules about what can and cannot be sold on their site, then technically the seller is already guilty of breaking the rules simply by virtue of having listed it in the first place, regardless of whether through ignorance of the rules or willfully hoping not to get caught. As the saying goes, "Ignorance of the law is not a legal defense for breaking the law." Nevertheless, I have knowingly purchased as well as listed and sold items I knew were expressly prohibited by eBay's rules (mostly elephant ivory and switchblade knives).

~Q~

PS--I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm being "preachy" I do not mean to be. I claim absolutely no moral high ground on this matter whatsoever. It's just that, as you can probably tell, this is a subject that deeply interests me and something I have had to wrestle with in my own conscience. Consequently, I am extremely interested in others' experiences and how they feel about this whole situation. I pride myself on being 100% honest in all my dealings with others, and yet when it comes to eBay, for some strange reason I find it disturbingly easy to justify breaking the rules that I have agreed to abide by. I'm still trying to determine why that is and if it's as big a concern for anyone else and how they deal with this issue.

[Old Hunter]

-Q- I've got to admit - you have totally lost me. When you contacted your fellow AAPK member you violated ebay's rules, but when ebay rejects an item for sell that you listed, then you are ethically free of any agreement you had for selling the item through ebay. That's not pretzel logic, that's common sense. OH

[just bob]

I can understand why ebay has rules and I can also understand why members work around them. I spoke with a woman recently who told me that her ebay account was suspended for 90 days and she couldn't buy or sell. I asked her why and she said it was from selling knives. She had bought a junk lot of knives at an estate sale and listed them on ebay. Apparently one of them was a switch and the poor woman didn't know what a switch was. She kept removing a knife from the lot and relisting the lot, but never actually removed the switch from the lot. After 3 warnings ebay suspended her - or so she says. In this case her suspension was due to ignorance of the items she was listing. Has anyone else ever been threatened with suspension? I had never heard of that. Ebay has called me at least 3 times and I have had items taken down. but no one has ever mentioned suspension. If they do find you are sending contact info through the ebay message system your account might be on thin ice? Clearly you agree not to do that when you list an item. I certainly am not in a position to throw the first stone here, but I would not engage in this practice.

[QTCut5]

-Q- I've got to admit - you have totally lost me. When you contacted your fellow AAPK member you violated ebay's rules, but when ebay rejects an item for sell that you listed, then you are ethically free of any agreement you had for selling the item through ebay. That's not pretzel logic, that's common sense. OH

We're dealing with two separate but related issues here: 1) completing a transaction outside of eBay that began on eBay, and 2) selling an item that eBay terminated (because it violated the rules) to someone who saw it on eBay before it was terminated and then shared contact information through eBay's messaging system in order to complete the transaction.

Yes, I agree with you: I broke eBay's rules when I made contact with the buyer outside of eBay. The point being that if a buyer and seller initially get "hooked up" through eBay and then find another way to complete the transaction outside of eBay, regardless of whether or not the item was terminated by eBay, that is a clear violation of the rules.

In the case of an item being terminated by eBay and then being sold to someone who initially found it on eBay because the buyer and seller somehow managed to share contact information, that's where it becomes a gray area. As long as you can make contact with the other party without using eBay's message system, then no rules have been broken, hence no unethical behavior has occurred. In the case I referenced earlier, if I hadn't recognized the buyer's eBay handle as his AAPK handle by sheer chance, I would not have been able to complete the transaction outside of eBay without finding a way to share my contact info with him through eBay. As it happened, I already had a way to contact the buyer independent of eBay's message system...so, that's why I felt it was a gray area, because we initially connected through eBay but completed the transaction on AAPK without using eBay to establish independent contact. The knife I was selling was not terminated by eBay, but if it had been and then I sold it through AAPK to the same person who was bidding on it on eBay before it was terminated because we just happened to already have a way to make contact outside of eBay, then I do not think that would have been unethical at all. However, if the item was terminated and then I used eBay's message system to contact the buyer and complete the transaction outside of eBay, that would have been unethical because it violates eBay's rule about using their message system to share contact information (as tongueriver is planning to try to do with his contact information embedded in a jpeg image -- which I fully support, BTW). As long as you can find a way to share contact information without using eBay's message system, there is no ethical issue. It's the using of eBays message system to share contact information that creates an ethical issue because that is expressly forbidden in eBay's rules.

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

QTCut5, i, like you and many others here, place my integrity as most important to me. Integrity requires being absolutely honest including neither exaggerating or minimizing a situation or facts. Seems clear but there are gray areas where discretion becomes necessary.
If disclosing some facts/incident to a person might result in that person harming another, then perhaps you should not disclose or even lie.
Life presents an infinite variety of situations in which we can find ourselves. It is too complex to rely only on integrity to conduct oneself. We need to also consider logic, past experiences and common sense and combine this with integrity when deciding on a course of action.
The situation of being in direct contact with an ebay seller is not a gray area. When becoming an ebay member we promised to not deal directly with another ebay member on matters of buying/selling. All communication is to go through the ebay message system.
Despite my integrity being most important to me, might i break this communication rule ? Maybe. While my integrity is most important to me i am not a saint and not perfect. Minor transgressions of integrity might occur when the stakes are low and no serious harm could occur.
Judge yourself on your overall behavior. Don't judge yourself based on one minor transgression alone.
kj

[Old Hunter]

Wow, I see this is very important to you. I will go about declining to split frog hairs but I respect your right to split them nine ways! OH

[QTCut5]

She kept removing a knife from the lot and relisting the lot, but never actually removed the switch from the lot. In this case her suspension was due to ignorance of the items she was listing.

That's the part I have to wonder about. How did she determine which knife to remove before relisting the lot? She must have based her decision on some criteria, surely it wasn't just a random selection. In this case, I have no sympathy for the woman due to her ignorance. After the first warning from eBay, she should have endeavored to find out exactly why her knives were in violation. By not doing so, I feel she was being lazy. After the second warning, it was just plain stupid of her to relist the lot without finding out what the problem was. Why would someone do that after two warnings? Makes no logical sense. I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who persists in ignorance after being warned twice.

~Q~

[QTCut5]

Wow, I see this is very important to you. I will go about declining to split frog hairs but I respect your right to split them nine ways! OH

Thanks, OH...the thing is, I think we actually agree on the main issues. But, I see gray areas (frog hairs) that most people prefer to ignore...which is fine, I normally choose to ignore them as well. I'm just curious how otherwise honest people, myself included, can be so quick to break the rules when dealing with eBay and feel nothing is wrong about that. I break the rules, but I feel it's wrong..and curiously, like jerryd, I feel absolutely no remorse about it. Does that not strike you as somewhat peculiar?

~Q~

[zzyzzogeton]

What I find both hilarious AND extremely irritating is fleabay's absolutely obsessive behavior towards adhering to its policy of "no switch blades because of federal law", I.e., the National Switchblade Act while at the same time completely ignoring instance after instance of the sale of counterfeit goods over a wide variety of categories beyond knives, responding only after being sued by the holders of the trademarks.

I can see why some folks don't worry about violating fleabay's rules when fleabay itself is two-faced about enforcing rules.

[QTCut5]

Despite my integrity being most important to me, might i break this communication rule ? Maybe. While my integrity is most important to me i am not a saint and not perfect. Minor transgressions of integrity might occur when the stakes are low and no serious harm could occur. kj

OK, now we're getting somewhere. So, what you're saying, kj, is that integrity is situationally relative depending on the outcome of exercising or failing to exercise integrity or on what's at stake -- low stakes don't necessarily require the same level of integrity as high stakes. Integrity is not "absolute" at all times, in all places, in all situations. There really is no such thing as 100% honesty...it's more of a sliding scale that depends on any number of variables, not the least of which is conscious choice or an ability to justify momentary lapses of integrity ("I'm not a saint and not perfect"). It is not as clear cut, black or white, right or wrong as many (most) people would like to believe and/or claim they are. I can't disagree with you, although that rationale still leaves me feeling somewhat conflicted. Interesting.

~Q~