India sambar stag

[eveled]

Pith is the softer core of the antler. Shows up as little dots. Sambar has a very dense core. On a pocket knife you are just using the edges anyway. The wider and thicker the scale the more the center comes into play. On a fixed blade knife with no pommel you can clearly see the center pith.

[orvet]

I'm not an expert in antlers, neither deer, elk or sambar stag, but I do use a fair amount of antler, mostly sambar stag in re-handling knives. As the availability of sambar stag decreases and the price increases, I ask questions of my suppliers. The answers I receive seem to be fairly consistent.

The highlights are as follows:

1- The government of India has permanently banned the sale and exportation of sambar deer antler some. The explanation I have received for this is that is is a matter of money. People pay big money to go to India, right on the back of an elephant and watch the tigers. We're talking big tourist dollars $$! People walking around in the tiger habitat picking up sambar deer sheds disturbs the tigers and the tens of millions of tourist dollars from the tiger watchers. Yes, the government of India does make money on the exportation of sambar stag however, the amount of money from the antlers is minuscule compared to the huge tourist dollars! Therefore the people who make their living harvesting the sandbar sheds are basically out of luck. Good luck finding a new line of work in an overcrowded nation.

2- Yes, sambar deer will grow in other parts of the world. I have seen guided hunting tours for sambar deer in New Zealand. However, I am told that the development of the antlers is greatly affected by nutrition/diet and minerals. The diet available to the sambar deer in the India is ideal for producing the best figured and straightest antlers.

3- I have also been told that the Indian government from time to time stops the exportation of sambar antler in order to raise the price. But I was assured by one supplier that this time it is different, there is far more money available in tiger tourism than in sambar antler exportation. We will never see sambar stag exported from India again, ever!

These are some of the assorted explanations I have received from various suppliers. Some of the explanation seemed plausible, some seem less plausible to me. I'm not sure exactly what the truth is in this matter. One thing I am sure of is that if the price of sambar stag continues to rise, (especially if it becomes completely unavailable), we will undoubtedly see the use of other types of antler. Elk antler does have considerably more pith on average than sambar stag on average, however modern stabilization techniques the only place that presents a problem is where the pith is seen on an end cut; for example slab handled fixed blade without a pommel

I will post some pictures shortly that show sambar antler and elk antler so you can see the difference between the thicknesses of the hard outside layer on both types of antler.

[orvet]

Here are a few sets of sambar stag handles cut in slabs for folders.
You can see the thick harder layer, in fact that's mostly what you see except on a couple of these slabs.

This is a round of elk antler. You can see the hard outer layer is much thinner on this piece of antler than it is on the sambar stag slabs.
The gray porous looking inside of the antler is what is commonly referred to as pith. You can see why that might cause a problem especially on a bare head jack or a slab handled fixed blade that has no pommel. I believe the pith can be filled through the stabilization process, but I'm not exactly sure how we could make it look more like bone or antler. In other words make it more appealing to the eye then this gray stuff!

[Doc B]

Interesting posts, Dale. Thanks!

[doglegg]

Great visual Dale.

[eveled]

Very informative. Thanks Dale.

I like the way Randall treats the end of some of their stag handles with a brass plate. It is very thin and is cut to match the veins in the antler. It must take some real skill.

[LongBlade]

Interesting info Dale ...

I’m curious but can you show the outside color and texture of the 6 handle slabs? I get this feeling that compared to 100 years or more ago the stag was different in color (maybe just age and handling was the reason) and the “gnarliness” was significantly more... Importantly this is my perception but I rarely see newer stag that has the attributes of that over a century ago on modern knives...

[Mumbleypeg]

I’m thinking perhaps the depth of Sambar stag’s outer layer, before the pith is reached, is related to the trend toward thicker handle covers. Prior to the proliferation of Sambar stag that seemed to appear post-WWWII, most stag covers were thinner. In the 1960s and early 1970s, thick Sambar stag covers were commonplace and desirable among collectors.

I’m judging mostly from my experience with Case, who arguably has produced the most genuine stag knives and has been a prolific producer of Sambar stag knives. When others went to synthetic materials (“Plastag”, etc) Case continued to use genuine stag. So perhaps it’s just that I’ve seen more of them.

Ken

[jerryd6818]

Case, who arguably has produced the most genuine stag knives and has been a prolific producer of Sambar stag knives.

Ken

And then hafted away much of the character from the handles on their knives.

[kootenay joe]

I think the difference in stag thickness from vintage to present is based on hafting technique and consumer preference. In the 1970's-80's There was a "thick stag" phase in which marketers convinced buyers that thick stag was better as though they were buying salami by the pound.
There is some amazing stag on vintage Sheffield knives up to about WW I. As far as i know what species of animal this old stag came from has not been determined.
In the 1600-1700's and maybe more recently, huge racks were discovered, preserved in bogs in Britain. These had come from an extinct species of giant Red Deer.
I wonder if any of these were used for knife handles ?
kj

[Mumbleypeg]

Case, who arguably has produced the most genuine stag knives and has been a prolific producer of Sambar stag knives.

Ken

And then hafted away much of the character from the handles on their knives.

I agree. That's the inevitable result when you have thick handle material no matter what it is. That material needs to be hafted/tapered down to fit the bolsters. As was pointed out I guess consumer preference drove the thicker stag, along with Sambar stag having properties that enabled it. I'll still take it over the fake stag any day!

Since the subject of this post is Sambal stag, here's a link to some stunning examples. viewtopic.php?f=66&t=52114

Ken

[Quick Steel]

Thanks for listing that earlier post Ken. Those are some remarkable stag covers. Gorgeous stuff.

[LongBlade]

Ken - Thanks for posting that link ... I'm not a Case collector at all and don't often check that subforum.... The background regarding Case knife handles is very interesting to me - that stag is nice but still much different to me than the old vintage Sheffield knives and I wouldn't probably associate the Case Stag as Sambar based upon my own ignorance not knowing the origin -

I agree with KJ that Sheffield had some of the nicest, thickest stag I have ever seen (again I assume Sambar and the look to me is different than the Case Stag ... ). I also find it interesting that a few noted that the stag used was thinner but became thicker during a certain time frame on Case knives... I wonder if that was maybe due to supply or just hafting technique - marketing? Even in Sheffield I think the Stag changed during the early to mid 1900s though seemed to be more consistent in the 1800s...

Anyway - here are a couple more Sheffield examples and probably both pre-1860 with integrated liners and bolster - I assume these are Sambar - both knives have very thick slab...

Rodgers -

Wostenholm -

and one more Amercian knife - Russell Rope Knife - probably +/- 1900 up to WWI.. Sambar?? (and an unfortunate chip on front but couldn't let this one go based on price)...

[Mumbleypeg]

My perception at least has been that Sambar stag became much more prevalent after WWII, at least among U.S. manufacturers and notably with Case. I’m not sure what the source of old, pre-war Sheffield stag was, but I agree it does have a different appearance. I’ve heard stories of stag being “torched” and/or treated with permanganate to enhance its color, which if true could explain some of the differences in appearance. Maybe someone can give some insight - my comments are more speculation, hearsay, and anecdotal than fact-based.

It has been my observation that for whatever reason, Case often put the “smoother” pieces of stag on the mark side and the more gnarly pieces on the pile side. Perhaps also driven by customer preferences at the time. Here are a few examples of Case pile side Sambar stag. Click to enlarge.

Ken

[ken98k]

Surprising that someone hasn't attempted to introduce those into the U.S.
Surely, we have an environment/climate in which they would thrive.
Charlie

They have been introduced into the US.
"Sambar deer were introduced onto St. Vincent Island, Florida, in 1908[26] and increased to about 50 individuals by the 1950s. White-tailed deer also live on St. Vincent Island; however, they inhabit the highlands while the sambar deer mostly live in the lowlands and marshes. To ensure that the sambar deer population does not disrupt the native whitetails, hunting permits have been issued since 1987 to regulate the population. Each year, about 130 permits are offered for the three-day hunt. This maintains a sambar deer population of 70–100 individuals.[27] They do not herd, but occur in groups of four or five animals, possible family groups. Little is known about the sambar deer in Florida.[28]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambar_deer

[jerryd6818]

To follow up on my previous statement, while I freely admit that these are in the minority, my opinion is these are pathetic examples of stag handles. (Ducking for cover. Let the shelling begin.)

[eveled]

Here are my Sambar Stag Randall’s. I’m very happy with them. You can clearly see how dense the centers are.

[eveled]

Here are some Buck “Sambar Stag”. In quotes because I have my doubts. Even though they are clearly advertised as Sambar. You can see some pith starting to show. Can’t see the ends because of the pommels. Love the knives. Just not sure they are Sambar Stag.

[eveled]

This is my bad Stag example. Sold as Amber Stag. I knew it was died the orange color. But it doesn’t look close to the picture on the site. I kept it because I got a good deal and it feels good to hold. It has a nice fat center. It is a good user.

[Mumbleypeg]

To follow up on my previous statement, while I freely admit that these are in the minority, my opinion is these are pathetic examples of stag handles. (Ducking for cover. Let the shelling begin.)

Jerry, I’ve seen a few of those pathetic stags before too. Always wondered who bought them.

Thanks for takin one for the team!

BTW that Russlock has “6.5 Bonestag” covers, not genuine stag.

Ken

[jerryd6818]

Thanks Ken, Good catch. Deleted it.

[LongBlade]

Ken - Nice Case stag examples ... I can see the resemblance and no doubt towards bolsters the hafting may have diminished the overall look... also you may be right about old stag and dying but don’t know the answer - I also assumed some coloration was from years of handling... however I still think that old Sheffield stag was more gnarly but importantly that is my perception and not fact... is it an evolutionary change or pressure on the Sambar deer as Dale suggested in his post?

Jerry - Great examples of how hafting didn’t do justice to the stag - if indeed it is Sambar ..

Eveled - Randall made some wonderful knives ... was that fixed blade sold as having Sambar? It may well be but just curious...

There is a photo floating around of the Rodgers Stag supply room from long ago - doubt it helps much but can’t find that photo right now ... one other thing as an aside and a generalization but when comparing old Sheffield vs American knives I think Sheffield used much more stag whereas American cutleries used much more jigged bone - in fact jigged bone here was much nicer than many Sheffield examples though I think Sheffield examples are not all that common - like using true stag here...

[eveled]

All the knives I posted were sold as Sambar Stag. But who really knows?

The way it is going, Sambar Stag is going to fall under “buy the knife not the story”.

[LongBlade]

The way it is going, Sambar Stag is going to fall under “buy the knife not the story”.

Agreed ... this is starting to remind me of Rogers bone - though I think some Rogers bone no doubt has an associated look and color from dying there are questionable examples...

[eveled]

Don’t forget all the Sandbar stag knives that are out there too. Lol. Buyer beware indeed.