2004 brought "End Of Days" knives. "Back From The Dead" knives in 2019?

Schrade Cutlery Company was founded in 1904 by George Schrade, and his brothers Jacob and William Schrade. In 1946 Imperial Knife Associated Companies, (IKAC; an association of Ulster Knife Co and Imperial Knife Co) purchased controlling interest in Schrade Cut Co and changed the name to Schrade Walden Cutlery. In 1973 the name was changed to Schrade Cutlery. In 2004 Schrade closed due to bankruptcy.

This forum is dedicated to the knives that are the legacy of this company. This forum is not the place to discuss the replica knives currently being imported using the Schrade name.
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bladecollectorr
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2004 brought "End Of Days" knives. "Back From The Dead" knives in 2019?

Post by bladecollectorr » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:04 pm

This year I noticed an odd trend in Schrade availability. A sea of genuine stag (not 100% sure it's Sambar) Schrade USA LB7-type knives keep coming up for auction. It's mainly three sellers and they have many of these.

The one commonality is the 100th Anniversary shield. It's on every one of these knives. Never another shield. I also noticed that the position of the lock-bar pin is consistent with the early frame used prior to 1993. Around 1993 the pin was moved to a more central location. This pin placement pretty much rules out recent Chinese-manufacture frames.

At first I thought of these as "End Of Days" knives but 15 years later this seemed kind of unlikely. There are just too many appearing all at once.

My fuzzy memory is holding to the idea that whenever Schrade used Sambar on LB7-type knives the two handle pins were ground flat and flush with the stag but the lock-bar pin was inset and spun to a domed shape. All the pics I've checked seem to confirm this.

Two examples below. Both examples show the 1993-2004 lock-bar pin placement as compared to the knives in question.
NAHC.jpg
LTD.jpg
All the knives that are now appearing have all three visible pins ground flush and flat. No domed lock-bar pins. Due to this discrepancy I am leaning toward the conclusion that these knives have recently been completed from old parts by someone other than Imperial Schrade Corp. Knife example pics below and next post:
01.jpg
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06.jpg
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08.jpg
I collect Schrade associated knives that were manufactured in the USA.

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bladecollectorr
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Re: 2004 brought "End Of Days" knives. "Back From The Dead" knives in 2019?

Post by bladecollectorr » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:04 pm

So what do you think fellow Schrade aficionados? End of Days? Completed recently by mystery firm? Any and all comments appreciated.

More of them:
09.jpg
10.jpg
11.jpg
13.jpg
14.jpg
15.jpg
16.jpg
17.jpg
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19.jpg
I collect Schrade associated knives that were manufactured in the USA.

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Re: 2004 brought "End Of Days" knives. "Back From The Dead" knives in 2019?

Post by tongueriver » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:23 pm

I have no idea about your questions specific to the stag, but I know that ever since the bankruptcy, the large Tennessee firm which purchased TONS of Schrades and Schrade parts at the auction, has been seeding patterns and types and batches to dealers in waves. I have seen many of these waves. For instance (and there are many examples besides this) about 3-5 years ago the 51OT lockbacks went rolling through Ebay for many weeks. You are showing some very nice knives!

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Re: 2004 brought "End Of Days" knives. "Back From The Dead" knives in 2019?

Post by bladecollectorr » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:33 pm

tongueriver wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:23 pm
I have no idea about your questions specific to the stag, but I know that ever since the bankruptcy, the large Tennessee firm which purchased TONS of Schrades and Schrade parts at the auction, has been seeding patterns and types and batches to dealers in waves. I have seen many of these waves. For instance (and there are many examples besides this) about 3-5 years ago the 51OT lockbacks went rolling through Ebay for many weeks. You are showing some very nice knives!
Good guess. SMKW at it again. I too recall previous waves of PH1 and 167UH etc with dark wood handles and small brass pins.
I collect Schrade associated knives that were manufactured in the USA.

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Re: 2004 brought "End Of Days" knives. "Back From The Dead" knives in 2019?

Post by cody6268 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:41 pm

According to an SMKW catalog, these were assembled in China using American parts.

They look pretty nice, but I figure it would be better to buy an LB-7 and get it rehandled in stag--in America.

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Re: 2004 brought "End Of Days" knives. "Back From The Dead" knives in 2019?

Post by bladecollectorr » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:48 pm

cody6268 wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:41 pm
According to an SMKW catalog, these were assembled in China using American parts.

They look pretty nice, but I figure it would be better to buy an LB-7 and get it rehandled in stag--in America.
NICE! Mystery solved. I didn't think to check their catalogs. I too want to collect Schrade made in USA only and when SMKW sold-off the Schrade Factory Wall Collection it rubbed me the wrong way so I will never buy from them as a result.
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Re: 2004 brought "End Of Days" knives. "Back From The Dead" knives in 2019?

Post by tongueriver » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:54 pm

bladecollectorr wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:48 pm
cody6268 wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:41 pm
According to an SMKW catalog, these were assembled in China using American parts.

They look pretty nice, but I figure it would be better to buy an LB-7 and get it rehandled in stag--in America.
NICE! Mystery solved. I didn't think to check their catalogs. I too want to collect Schrade made in USA only and when SMKW sold-off the Schrade Factory Wall Collection it rubbed me the wrong way so I will never buy from them as a result.
If my memory serves (it rarely does), they promised Herman Williams (who created the Factory Wall) that they would not split it up. That is actually not the only thing about that outfit that rubs me the wrong way, but I don't care to be negative on this great forum.

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Re: 2004 brought "End Of Days" knives. "Back From The Dead" knives in 2019?

Post by tongueriver » Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:57 pm

bladecollectorr wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:33 pm
I too recall previous waves of PH1 and 167UH etc with dark wood handles and small brass pins.
They also did the 160 OT in plywood. I always wanted to know if the heat treat had been done, but never did find out.

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Re: 2004 brought "End Of Days" knives. "Back From The Dead" knives in 2019?

Post by bladecollectorr » Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:01 pm

Accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative... Don't mess with Mr. In-Between.



I hear ya. The promise to Herman was the story I heard too and it's what stuck with me.
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Re: 2004 brought "End Of Days" knives. "Back From The Dead" knives in 2019?

Post by deo-pa » Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:58 pm

...and when SMKW sold-off the Schrade Factory Wall Collection it rubbed me the wrong way so...
For those of us who aren't heavily into Schrade please tell me about the Schrade Factory Wall Collection. I Googled the term but didn't find any images. I have a mental picture of a large display of perhaps hundreds of Schrade knives mounted on one of the factory walls... is that what this is/was? Does anyone who visited the factory have photos?

Also, it's not clear from the posts whether they sold the wall display off as an intact collection as they promised Mr. Williams or whether they broke it up when they sold it; which was was it? Thanks,

Dennis

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Re: 2004 brought "End Of Days" knives. "Back From The Dead" knives in 2019?

Post by KnifeSlinger#81 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:09 pm

deo-pa wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:58 pm
...and when SMKW sold-off the Schrade Factory Wall Collection it rubbed me the wrong way so...
For those of us who aren't heavily into Schrade please tell me about the Schrade Factory Wall Collection. I Googled the term but didn't find any images. I have a mental picture of a large display of perhaps hundreds of Schrade knives mounted on one of the factory walls... is that what this is/was? Does anyone who visited the factory have photos?

Also, it's not clear from the posts whether they sold the wall display off as an intact collection as they promised Mr. Williams or whether they broke it up when they sold it; which was was it? Thanks,

Dennis
SMKW had promised to keep the wall collection intact (which had many beautiful schrades going all the way back to cut co's) and they bought it for a cut rate price and sold most of it off. They still have some on their website for absolutely ridiculous prices. SMKW can stick it where the sun don't shine.

LT took some pictures of the wall collection before it was sold. They are here in the schrade subforum somewhere.
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Re: 2004 brought "End Of Days" knives. "Back From The Dead" knives in 2019?

Post by orvet » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:39 pm

As I understand these Schrade Factory wall pause a large conference room with the walls covered from knives throughout Schrade's one hundred year history. I may be mistaken on the fact that it was just one conference room. The knives dated back to early Schrade Cut Co knives, special runs and prototypes, even some experimental knives that did not see production. There were many historical knives on the wall as well. LT had supplied a number of old & special knives from his collection for knives that even the factory did not have examples of.

Prior to the auction I had talked to LT and he told me the people from SMKW/Blue Ridge had assured him that they would keep the collection intact and displayed for the public so that the history might be preserved. LT told me that he thought they would keep their word. In retrospect I believe the only reason they told him that was so that they could win the auction at a much lower price than if they had to bid against him.

As I recall the timing, about 30 days after the end of the auction, we started seeing knives from the Schrade Factory Wall being sold on eBay.


As to the subject of knives being finished in China and shipped back here to be sold; that has been going on for quite some time. There were a lot of blades that were sold after the auction, both after the Schrade closure and after the Camillus closure. I know, because I bought a lot of those blades. They had all been heat-treated and most had been ground. At first I was unsure if the underground blades were heat-treated or not. I asked Wallace Rockwell, of Camillus, if the Camillus blades had been heat-treated. He told me that most modern factories heat treat the blanks before they are ground, and then they are ground by machines that circulate a lubricant/coolant over the blades so that they do not overheat while they are being ground. This is done to prevent warping in the blade when they are heat-treated. It is more cost-effective to grind the blades after they are heat-treated fan to lose a sizable percentage of the heat-treated blades due to warping a. If you ever have a question as to whether a blade is hardened or not, use the file test. If the file skates, the blade is hard. If the file bites into the steel, the steel is not hard.

There has been a lot of Schrade parts on sale on eBay, many are blades and liners held together by the Swinden rivet, others are handle parts, some are backsprings, etc. It's not difficult to accumulate the parts to make your own knives. A few hundred dollars invested in eBay auctions, the patience to wait for the correct parts, and the knowledge, skills and abilities to put the parts together. I have done it myself many times, however I do not market them as a knife made in the Schrade factory, I mark them and tell the buyer that these are knives that I put together from factory parts.

Apparently there were plenty of old parts in Ellenville, we saw a few years back some 14OT blades come through eBay with wooden handles and no guard. We have seen a number of knives with different colored TPR handles, (thermoplastic rubber, as seen on the 140, 141, 142, 143, 146, 147 & 246 Old Timers). I believe most of these were blanks that were sent to China or somewhere, to have the TPR handles installed in the colorful variations.

The LB7's with stag handles on them are, in my opinion, just the latest installment of parts from Ellenville being completed in China.

It is been common knowledge that the reason for so many of the End of Days knives was that Schrade was filling orders and then putting together whatever they could in order to generate sales. It was also said that there were enough knives shipped and others that were completed then waiting to be shipped, that the resulting income would have paid off Schrade's debt with the bank and allowed Schrade to reorder raw materials for the next round of manufacturing, was zero money owing. The bank said "No." Of course the bank would receive the money from the accounts receivable anyway, I guess they had no incentive to allow Schrade to continue. I have heard talk that the bank may have been incentivized by parties unnamed to allow the bankruptcy to go forward and not grant Imperial Schrade Corporation another extension on their loan.
We will probably never know for sure. ::shrug::
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Re: 2004 brought "End Of Days" knives. "Back From The Dead" knives in 2019?

Post by kootenay joe » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:00 am

I do not see much collector demand for real Schrade USA knives made well before closure. Hence i am surprised it is worthwhile to finish any knives in China as there seems to be little demand for Schrade USA knives.
I have quite a few original Schrade knives. Put a few on ebay, lucky to get $20 bid.
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Re: 2004 brought "End Of Days" knives. "Back From The Dead" knives in 2019?

Post by TripleF » Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:53 am

kootenay joe wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:00 am
I do not see much collector demand for real Schrade USA knives made well before closure. Hence i am surprised it is worthwhile to finish any knives in China as there seems to be little demand for Schrade USA knives.
I have quite a few original Schrade knives. Put a few on ebay, lucky to get $20 bid.
kj
'Schrade isn't the only victim of lesser demand/interest in traditional folding USA made knives....I just sold a oeanut Queen for 5.00, Some Case knives don't even reach $20.00, same with Camillus, Keen Kutter, etc. They're mostly of interest to seasoned collectors not the younger tactical styleknifers.
So, I wouldn't put Schrade in a "little demand" category.
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Re: 2004 brought "End Of Days" knives. "Back From The Dead" knives in 2019?

Post by tongueriver » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:03 am

TripleF wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:53 am
kootenay joe wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:00 am
I do not see much collector demand for real Schrade USA knives made well before closure. Hence i am surprised it is worthwhile to finish any knives in China as there seems to be little demand for Schrade USA knives.
I have quite a few original Schrade knives. Put a few on ebay, lucky to get $20 bid.
kj
'Schrade isn't the only victim of lesser demand/interest in traditional folding USA made knives....I just sold a oeanut Queen for 5.00, Some Case knives don't even reach $20.00, same with Camillus, Keen Kutter, etc. They're mostly of interest to seasoned collectors not the younger tactical styleknifers.
So, I wouldn't put Schrade in a "little demand" category.
It is going to get worse. Same with classic cars, or anything that the Boomers have gone crazy for. We are so...."meh,"... that the youngsters roll their eyes and say, "OK, Boomer," in a clearly disparaging manner.

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