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Hivemind Discussion: Original vs Repaired vs Restored vs RestoMod vs Re-Creation vs Counterfeit

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:25 pm
by TwoFlowersLuggage
I'm pretty sure this topic has been discussed before, but I'm interested in the current thinking of this hivemind of great brains...

In all disciplines of antique & vintage collecting, there is a continuum of items that span the spectrum from 100% original and as built in the factory on one side, to the outright fake & counterfeit on the other. In between those easy extremes are many shades of gray that perplex and frustrate many collectors. If you are a collector that buys only pristine, 100% knives with impeccable provenance documentation, then this topic would only affect you if you became the target of a true criminal counterfeiter. On the other end of the scale, if you buy a knife only because you like it and you then stick the knife in your pocket and use it, you are also completely unaffected by any of this. However, for the rest of us that fancy ourselves some sort of "collector", we see all the shades of gray every time we visit Ebay, a knife show or even our own AAPK stores.

It can start simple - just cleaning a dirty knife is a small level of "restoration". Stopping rust is often called "preservation". Buffing takes it up a notch. Then we might start to truly get into the area of "repair" - replacing a missing shield with a period correct part from a donor knife. Or, perhaps disassembly and reassembly just to properly clean and tighten everything up. Now it starts to get a bit more sticky, like replacing a broken secondary blade with a period correct part from a donor knife, or even rebuilding a knife from several donor knives to make one knife that has all period correct parts. Are these "restored" knives, or "cobbled" counterfeits?

Certainly, faking a tang stamp is fraud. So is putting a reshaped Schrade blade on a Case knife and then selling it as a Case. It's also fraud to put a blade with a Tested XX stamp on a 1980s frame and then sell it as a knife from the 1930s. What about the knife artisan that creates a knife using factory parts but with a blade shape or handle material that the factory never produced? Clearly, if the artisan tries to sell it as a "factory prototype", that's fraud. But what if it is sold simply as a homage to the brand they love?

It is also easy to say that as long as the seller properly advertises the knife for what it is, then it doesn't really matter. But what about the second seller? Or the family that takes over the estate of the deceased collector? Or the pawn shop owner? Will they advertise it properly? There are as many different scenarios as there are knives and people. Should we throw the baby out with the bathwater and call foul on all but original, untouched knives? Should we say caveat emptor and simply tell people to educate themselves *before* handing over their money?

What say you? ::hmm::

Re: Hivemind Discussion: Original vs Repaired vs Restored vs RestoMod vs Re-Creation vs Counterfeit

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:15 pm
by Reverand
The knife should be marked inside the liner if there has been repair work such as replacing blades, handles, etc.
Cleaning and polishing are work that can be seen on a knife, so I wouldn't think it would need to be marked - the buyer (and all subsequent owners) should be able to study the knife and know such work has been done.

Perhaps more experienced people can shed more light on the 'gray areas', but that is my opinion.

Re: Hivemind Discussion: Original vs Repaired vs Restored vs RestoMod vs Re-Creation vs Counterfeit

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:49 pm
by philco
Well now you've gone and opened up a big ole can of worms !

I too, think a knife that has had blades or other parts replaced or otherwise modified should be marked by the workman to give everyone down the line a heads up to the modifications that have been made. Buffing and cleaning speak for themselves. Ultimately, there's just no way to totally eliminate any chance of someone getting fooled by some knives because some folks are unwilling to do their homework.

Re: Hivemind Discussion: Original vs Repaired vs Restored vs RestoMod vs Re-Creation vs Counterfeit

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:12 am
by jmh58
Ding.. Ding.. Ding..
This gotta be the longest thread title ever.... ::poke::
John :D

Re: Hivemind Discussion: Original vs Repaired vs Restored vs RestoMod vs Re-Creation vs Counterfeit

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:52 am
by cody6268
In my opinion, if a knife is heavily restored or modified; it needs to be marked as such in a clear way. Grinding off a tang stamp may be overkill, but at least it prevents being passed off as legitimate. Counterfeits have no place. Case seems to be among the most counterfeited; and with them still being extant, you'd think they'd make an effort to stop it.


There's another issue. There's those who knowingly pass off counterfeits as authentic, and even cobble them. But there's also those who don't know; the heirs of collections, and those reselling them; i.e. pickers, estate folks, and pawnbrokers. In many cases, they don't know a knife is fake/cobbled/counterfeit. Even when modified/restored and marked as such, they're ignorant as to the markings. And, I've dealt with sellers who, when pointed out what they had was counterfeit (even mass-market counterfeits, like the knockoff of the Gerber MP600 DET); were arrogant and acted as if what they had was real.

Re: Hivemind Discussion: Original vs Repaired vs Restored vs RestoMod vs Re-Creation vs Counterfeit

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:24 am
by TwoFlowersLuggage
jmh58 wrote: Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:12 am Ding.. Ding.. Ding..
This gotta be the longest thread title ever.... ::poke::
John :D
I will admit that I wanted to see just how long it could be. Apparently, longer than this! :mrgreen:

Re: Hivemind Discussion: Original vs Repaired vs Restored vs RestoMod vs Re-Creation vs Counterfeit

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:55 am
by Gunsil
Inside the liner? Who the heck looks for marks inside the liner? Knives put together should be plainly marked out on the blades where the world can plainly see that it is not as came from the factory EVEN if it has had a blade or scale replaced with one from an identical factory blade or scale.