All About Pocket Knives

Hey all, looking at knifeaholics Kabar offerings tonight got me thinking, who in your opinion had the best "recipe" for good old carbon steel for pocketknives. I had an old Challenge cutlery easy open jack that was dark as coal with patina but it made a very unique sound when I sharpened it. It got scary sharp very easily. Thoughts on who had the best recipe....pics if you have them please, and any modern honorable mentions welcome.

I've only owned a handful of vintage knives but among the ones that I've owned I've been the most impressed by the blades on my Remington knives. I really like old Remington bone too.

You'll get about as many opinions on that as there are members here. The older knife makers had their own proprietary steel formulas and equally importantly their proprietary tempering processes. However given the frequent relocation of cutlers from one company to another I have to think there was quite a lot of commonly shared knowledge. Bottom line - we all have our subjective favorites but they were all very good. JMO

There have been numerous previous discussions on this same subject. viewtopic.php?f=81&t=25210&hilit=Steel
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=53984&hilit=Steel

Ken

I've always been partial to the old Solingen Germany made Bokers.

I discussed my views at length in the first link Ken posted. Rather than bore you all with a repeat you can read it at the first link.

To summarize my view and express a slight shift in my opinion I will state that Western is the best, IMHO, that includes folders & fixed blades prior to Coleman's purchase of Western.

There are few degrees of difference between Western's quality and those of other major knife companies pre- 1970 or so.
The carbon steel from Western, Camillus, Schrade Cut Co, Schrade Walden, Case XX, Cattaraugus (sp?), Imperial, was all pretty close in quality, I think But I do have a slight preference for Western personally!

Every time I end up with an old Imperial I know I can create a stellar edge!!

Like Ken said, everyone will have an opinion on this but in cut tests by the clock and done on heavy cardboard, Schmidt & Ziegler fared the best. By that, it maintained a hair popping shaving edge the longest of any of the older knives. Schmidt & Ziegler was followed closely by Eye Brand, then Boker or Puma (their old Pumaster steel) as I recall. The comparison included none of the modern steels, of which I have very little knowledge. Of the USA made knives, seems like the early Remingtons and Western States ranked highly. The testing was done by an old friend by the way.

Ray

I have absolutely no idea.
But it set me to thinking who is the best person to ask for the best answer.
(1) The longest running member of AAPK?
(2) The oldest knife-toting grandpa known to an AAPK member?
(3) Orvet?
(4) This thread, including its links?
(5) All of the above?
Somehow I think old Remington and old Western steels 'have the edge' ( there's that pun again ) so far.
Info like this is great for people like me who don't care to reinvent the wheel.

The question would need to be defined. Best "recipe" as far as edge retention, durability, ease of sharpening, corrosion resistance, etc? I can agree with Scott that I can get Imperial knives very sharp easier than most other brands, for some reason, and Queen's give me a little trouble

Did any old time knife maker make their own steel? Did the steel makers make many variations of 1095 carbon steel for each individual knife maker? Those questions need to be answered - even the biggest knife maker used a miniscule amount of steel as compared to the Pennsylvania Railroad or in building a NYC or Chicago skyscraper, or in building the Golden Gate bridge, etc. I'm betting, just like today, there are steels available and the knife makers bought one and used it - probably took competitive bids each year from the manufacturers. The thickness of the steel and the quality of heat treating would probably be the biggest controlling factors the individual knife manufacturer exercised over the steel. OH

orvet wrote:I discussed my views at length in the first link Ken posted. Rather than bore you all with a repeat you can read it at the first link.

To summarize my view and express a slight shift in my opinion I will state that Western is the best, IMHO, that includes folders & fixed blades prior to Coleman's purchase of Western.

There are few degrees of difference between Western's quality and those of other major knife companies pre- 1970 or so.
The carbon steel from Western, Camillus, Schrade Cut Co, Schrade Walden, Case XX, Cattaraugus (sp?), Imperial, was all pretty close in quality, I think But I do have a slight preference for Western personally!

I have to agree Orvet, Western got the Best , Pre 1970 Schrade 2nd and Case CV!

Whew! What a can of worms, lol.

In my opinion this has several facets to it. One of course, is recipe, although like others have said due to economics and all the old time brands being so connected (same couple of families), I doubt the recipes are all that different. I think the things that set them apart are heat treatment, blade geometry, and how they’re sharpened.

Domestic knives in order:
1) Western before the Coleman buy out.
2) pre mid 70’s CASE CV especially XX era
3) Older Camillus

Import: (Like Phil I love Solingen steel)
1) Eye Brand
2) Boker

Give me any of the above. I like em all.

I have carried pretty much a very wide array of knives over the years. Here is my opinion on this topic. This is just me and what I feel is the best carbon knife blades. 52100 for me is by far the best I have used. I didn’t know what it was until I bought my first Lloyd. It holds an edge longer than any of my others and gets scary sharp. Second is old case steel. I’m talking tested WR era and xx era. USA era is good as well. XX era seems to be my preferred era. It holds up really nice. The dotted years of Case is horrible won’t hold a edge for nothing!! Then the new stuff isn’t worth anything, I can’t get it to sharpen a lick. The third best I have used is the Remington blades. I have a 1306 and an 1123, both of these hold their edge very well and get crazy sharp. I use the knives I carry and cut a lot of cardboard and plastic, so I put them all through the paces. I try my best to sharpen my knives after each days use and not let them get dull, but have went a couple days in between sharpening. That being said my favorite carbon is 52100 then case then Remington.

philco wrote:I've always been partial to the old Solingen Germany made Bokers.

Pretty much anyone who used 1075-1090 carbon steel, but yep Phil, I kinda lean toward them old Solingen Bokers myself. Boker USA steel wasn't bad either!

Frankly I don't think it matters much and I have not run into bad steel from any old or new traditional knife. The geometry of the edge and blade grind has more of an effect on performance and edge retention than the steel does, provided the steel isn't absolute garbage.

Wonder where my post went from last night? Must not have clicked the right button.

I agree that Western steel seems to be "better" than the other brands. BUT.... that "betterness" came from the way Western processed their steel, not from the steel itself.

Steel foundries did not make small batches of steel with different "recipes". As an example, if you were a cutler and you bought your steel from Sharon Steel, you got Sharon's recipe, not your own.

Why does Western's steel seem "better" than their competitors" ? The answer is Harlon Platts. After he was discharged from the Army after WW1, he went to metallurgy school in England before coming home to Boulder. Aside- Western did not make any knives before 1919-1920. Western was a reseller only from 1913 to 1919. AFter Harlon returned, Western started making their ow knives.

Harlon kept experimenting with different HT/Tempering processes until he hit on one he preferred. Western was one of the first cutlers to use cryogenics in the HT process.

I have to disagree with Colonel26's cutoff for good Western steel as being when Coleman bought Western. After Coleman bought Western, the only thing that changed was who signed the paychecks. The facilities, equipment, processes and people were the same. The drop off was further down the road - the I/J years seem, at least to me, to be about when quality started to suffer from aging equipment, retirements and cutbacks. Probably changed steel vendors, might have reduced the heat treatment/tempering process costs, which changed the end result.

zzyzzogeton wrote:Wonder where my post went from last night? Must not have clicked the right button.

I agree that Western steel seems to be "better" than the other brands. BUT.... that "betterness" came from the way Western processed their steel, not from the steel itself.

Steel foundries did not make small batches of steel with different "recipes". As an example, if you were a cutler and you bought your steel from Sharon Steel, you got Sharon's recipe, not your own.

Why does Western's steel seem "better" than their competitors" ? The answer is Harlon Platts. After he was discharged from the Army after WW1, he went to metallurgy school in England before coming home to Boulder. Aside- Western did not make any knives before 1919-1920. Western was a reseller only from 1913 to 1919. AFter Harlon returned, Western started making their ow knives.

Harlon kept experimenting with different HT/Tempering processes until he hit on one he preferred. Western was one of the first cutlers to use cryogenics in the HT process.

I have to disagree with Colonel26's cutoff for good Western steel as being when Coleman bought Western. After Coleman bought Western, the only thing that changed was who signed the paychecks. The facilities, equipment, processes and people were the same. The drop off was further down the road - the I/J years seem, at least to me, to be about when quality started to suffer from aging equipment, retirements and cutbacks. Probably changed steel vendors, might have reduced the heat treatment/tempering process costs, which changed the end result.

I’m sure your right. I have no idea. I don’t buy anything after the boulder era any more. I have owned some USA era knives and they were great. I’ve just heard too many stories of how they cheapened them and seen too many atrocious looking wood handled ones from the Coleman era that I don’t buy any of them.

Colonel26, you must be referring to the W81, W82, W83, W84, W85 knives.