indian trade knives
- thickskinner54
- Posts: 43
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indian trade knives
Are any of you fellas familiar with Indian trade knives enough that you could help me place a monetary value on them? Also, I was wondering if there is a way that a layman, as I consider myself with these particular knives, can tell if they are authentic? I will enclose photos in my next post.
Thank you immensely, my fellows. I appreciate all of your help.
Thank you immensely, my fellows. I appreciate all of your help.
Politicians are the lowest life form on earth; Democrats are the lowest form of politicians - General George Patton
- TwoFlowersLuggage
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Re: indian trade knives
I know nothing about them, but here's an old thread from BF:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/ear ... fe.609988/
From that thread, it sounds like you might have to be a bit careful of reproductions.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/ear ... fe.609988/
From that thread, it sounds like you might have to be a bit careful of reproductions.
"The Luggage had a straightforward way of dealing with things between it and its intended destination: it ignored them." -Terry Pratchett
Re: indian trade knives
I hate to say this but most knives that are called by that name are figments of some folks imaginations. The fur trade era was very early, and over by the American civil war. Very few knives exist from this era and as stated above there are many fakes, way more fakes than originals for sale. There are folks who call early 20th century butcher knives "trade knives" and one can find many on such sites as ebay. None of these are "trade knives". Do you have a better description of what type of knife you are referring to or a photo of one? There are so few 1700s-early 1800s actual "trade knives" used during the fur trade era in existence today that it would be very difficult to amass a large collection let alone have a collection of ten real ones, thay just do not come to market often.
Re: indian trade knives
Reproductions abound and there are far more of those than the real deal. This website covers axes and tomahawks rather than knives but it gives a lot of info on how Indian trade items are faked.
http://www.furtradetomahawks.com/i-want ... ---30.html
Please post your photos, as there is a lot of knowledge here and you may get some good feedback. I would not be surprised however, if you find that you will not be able to say for sure without a formal appraisal by a recognized expert.
Dennis
http://www.furtradetomahawks.com/i-want ... ---30.html
Please post your photos, as there is a lot of knowledge here and you may get some good feedback. I would not be surprised however, if you find that you will not be able to say for sure without a formal appraisal by a recognized expert.
Dennis
- tongueriver
- Posts: 6830
- Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:01 pm
Re: indian trade knives
I started studying collectible fixed blade knives in January of 2007 and few days have passed since then that I have not spent an hour or more watching ebay. In all those years I have not seen one knife for sale that I would call a pre-Civil War trade knife. Just sayin... Of course some exist, but it would be a rare expert who could tell, because they were pretty much the same knives that have been made for everyday use by anyone, from the late 1700s to the present. The biggest difference for knives made after (say...) 1920 is the advent of the larger pins. Well before the American civil war, pretty much all trade with Amerindians had stopped with the tribes west of the Mississippi, in favor of concerted genocide.
Re: indian trade knives
There are some good points made in this thread. I am always skeptical of knives purported to be pre 1900, though I know that there are some out there.
If I were intending to seriously try to find some of those pre Civil War knives I thinik that a visit to some museums that actually have knives of that era might be where I would start. The riverboat Arabia was carrying a cargo for settlements along the Missouri River when it sank in 1856. The museum has a lot of knives from the cargo on display, though the ones I have seen photos of are mostly folders. A careful examination of the real thing would be place to start. Here is a not too clear photo of couple of fixed blades from the cargo - no idea if they are trade knives.
If I were intending to seriously try to find some of those pre Civil War knives I thinik that a visit to some museums that actually have knives of that era might be where I would start. The riverboat Arabia was carrying a cargo for settlements along the Missouri River when it sank in 1856. The museum has a lot of knives from the cargo on display, though the ones I have seen photos of are mostly folders. A careful examination of the real thing would be place to start. Here is a not too clear photo of couple of fixed blades from the cargo - no idea if they are trade knives.
Mel
- tongueriver
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Re: indian trade knives
Bernard Levine fourth edition, pages 332-338 has good information on the early knives. I would post the pages but I am not sure that does not violate his copyrights.
- whitebuffalo58
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Re: indian trade knives
I sort of balk at the entire concept of what would constitute a true so called "trade knife". The idea that there were knives specifically designed and manufactured for use as trade goods to Native Americans is, IMHO, rather far fetched. In that, the knives used for trade would have been the same knives used for sale or trade to anyone else at the time. It seems to me the only way to truly label a knife as a "trade knife", would be to have proven documentation that a specific knife indeed passed from Trader to Indian...in an actual trade. Otherwise, it's just another knife. Cool to have one from that era, but very hard to prove it was manufactured for the sole purpose as trade goods.
Also, some historians believe that in the central U.S., Native Americans actually learned to forge their own weapons from the Spanish as early as the 15th and 16th centuries and may have even learned to extract iron ore for their use. They had indeed learned these things by the onset of civilization moving west of the Mississippi River following the Civil War.
Somewhere I have a cigar box with bits of metal and globs of iron ore that I've picked up while arrowhead hunting on known Native American camp sites. One site in particular has been dated to the transition era between the Mississippian culture and post Columbian era. Roughly 1500-1700 a.d. It's not solid proof, but does lend itself to the theory.
It is fact that there was trade between early traders/trappers and Indians, but I'd be hard pressed to label any knife as a "trade knife" without documentation of it's use as such.
WB
Also, some historians believe that in the central U.S., Native Americans actually learned to forge their own weapons from the Spanish as early as the 15th and 16th centuries and may have even learned to extract iron ore for their use. They had indeed learned these things by the onset of civilization moving west of the Mississippi River following the Civil War.
Somewhere I have a cigar box with bits of metal and globs of iron ore that I've picked up while arrowhead hunting on known Native American camp sites. One site in particular has been dated to the transition era between the Mississippian culture and post Columbian era. Roughly 1500-1700 a.d. It's not solid proof, but does lend itself to the theory.
It is fact that there was trade between early traders/trappers and Indians, but I'd be hard pressed to label any knife as a "trade knife" without documentation of it's use as such.
WB
Re: indian trade knives
I think it will be really hard to document that a knife was indeed traded to the Indians since not many records were kept back than. The many books I have read just mention that X amount of sugar, coffee, and etc. were traded for X amount of buffalo robes, deer hides and etc. No mention of the make of those blades. I have owned one "Indian " knife, but I have no idea how they obtained it or how old it is for sure. It did have a rawhide wrapped handle secured with sinew and I believe it was reservation made in the late 1800's, (photo) included. Terry
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
- TwoFlowersLuggage
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Re: indian trade knives
I suspect it is difficult to apply generalizations to all NA tribes. What the Timucuas might have learned from the Spaniards in Florida in the 16th century might not have made it to the Nez Percé Indians in Idaho before the trappers got there. I suspect it also matters a great deal whether an NA tribe had access to local iron resources suitable for use in metalworking. They were so skilled at stone work, and metal resources might have been so scarce, that they might not have had much incentive to learn metalworking for tools until they met-up with Europeans and could acquire metals and tools in forms they could directly work.
I think it is interesting that South & Central America had a very mature metalworking technology, with evidence of smelting and alloys, yet no evidence has been found of that technology existing in North America. There is a lot of evidence of raw copper being cold worked in North America primarily for decorations.
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert - I just like reading about the history technology.
I think it is interesting that South & Central America had a very mature metalworking technology, with evidence of smelting and alloys, yet no evidence has been found of that technology existing in North America. There is a lot of evidence of raw copper being cold worked in North America primarily for decorations.
I'm not going to pretend to be an expert - I just like reading about the history technology.
"The Luggage had a straightforward way of dealing with things between it and its intended destination: it ignored them." -Terry Pratchett
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Re: indian trade knives
I don't know if this would qualify as an Indian,"trade" knife.I got it in "trade" for a sign that I painted for my uncle. It belonged to his son who collected Indian artifacts and was among his collection when he died unexpectedly from a brain aneurism at the age of 32. It appears to be an old butcher knife(no tang or blade stamp) that has a crude arrow cut into one side and a serpent on the other.
The handle is a rather large section of bone filled with lead and decorated with sheet copper.Whatever it is it's an interesting piece to say the least.
The handle is a rather large section of bone filled with lead and decorated with sheet copper.Whatever it is it's an interesting piece to say the least.
Adventure BEFORE Dementia!
- whitebuffalo58
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Re: indian trade knives
They also showed up in the central plains about that same time. How far north and how fast is still speculation. I can't speak directly to knives, but there are documented iron arrowheads from the central U.S. that predate the civil war by 100+ years. I've never read ironclad(no pun intended ) evidence as to whether they were traded for, or actually manufactured by the Indians themselves, but I have read both theories.Spaniards in Florida in the 16th century
WB
- TwoFlowersLuggage
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Re: indian trade knives
And then there is also this possibility...
https://www.cnn.com/2016/04/01/world/vi ... index.html
But that could start a whole 'nuther conversation...
https://www.cnn.com/2016/04/01/world/vi ... index.html
But that could start a whole 'nuther conversation...
"The Luggage had a straightforward way of dealing with things between it and its intended destination: it ignored them." -Terry Pratchett