knife steel of the early 1900

Ask knife related questions here. Please answer some if you are an experienced collector!
roger bennett
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:59 pm

knife steel of the early 1900

Postby roger bennett » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:39 pm

what type of knife was used by Camillus in the early years was it 1095 I have a stockman made between 1920 and 1930 use it every day for carving sharpest pocket knife I every had I am 64 years old this steel beats them all roger

User avatar
FRJ
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 7829
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 1:43 pm

Re: knife steel of the early 1900

Postby FRJ » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:20 pm

Welcome, roger bennett.
I know nothing about steel but would like to welcome you to the forum and thank you for participating.
We would love to see pictures of your knives.
Seems like you chose a good one for carving.
Chose a proper subforum and show us your carving if you would like to. ::tu::
Joe

User avatar
supratentorial
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:54 am

Re: knife steel of the early 1900

Postby supratentorial » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:09 pm

roger bennett wrote:what type of knife was used by Camillus in the early years was it 1095 I have a stockman made between 1920 and 1930 use it every day for carving sharpest pocket knife I every had I am 64 years old this steel beats them all roger


Camillus forged their blades from Wardlow's best crucible steel from Sheffield England.

1909-Camillus.jpeg

c1909

Wardlows.jpeg

c1921

roger bennett
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:59 pm

Re: knife steel of the early 1900

Postby roger bennett » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:12 pm

thanks guys all I known this blade steel is great I carve 4 to 6 hours a day sometime just strop and keep cutting my new pocket knives will not do this no matter the brand this is a great forum for people who love old usa made knives thanks a lot roger

User avatar
Paladin
Bronze Tier
Bronze Tier
Posts: 6798
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:20 am
Location: Near Austin, Texas, between a Rock and a Weird Place

Re: knife steel of the early 1900

Postby Paladin » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:41 pm

roger bennett wrote:what type of knife was used by Camillus in the early years was it 1095 I have a stockman made between 1920 and 1930 use it every day for carving sharpest pocket knife I every had I am 64 years old this steel beats them all roger

::welcome:: Roger and I really, really mean it. Please though, for the sake of my OC disorder and my sanity, put commas, periods and the occasional upper case in your posts. It will be so much easier and more fun even, to read your posts. :shock: :D :D :lol:
Paladin

God Bless the USA
Please visit my store SWEETWATER KNIVES
"Buy more ammo" - Johnnie Fain
"I'm glad I ain't scared to be lazy." Augustus McCrae

User avatar
americanedgetech
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:40 am
Location: Florida Pan Handle
Contact:

Re: knife steel of the early 1900

Postby americanedgetech » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:38 pm

I've been told that I punctuate too much so between he, and I... everything should just balance out. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'll lend you plenty of periods. Commas, you have to dig for... ::tu::
Ohhh I have a lot of these things~~~~~~
Ken Mc.

WTB Kershaw 2120 MACHO Lockback Parts knife
I need a pile side scale. THX!

User avatar
Old Hunter
Silver Tier
Silver Tier
Posts: 6116
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:14 am
Location: Eastern NC

Re: knife steel of the early 1900

Postby Old Hunter » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:21 pm

I love the dash - and the exclamation point! Welcome to AAPK - Roger! OH
Deep in the guts of most men is buried the involuntary response to the hunter's horn, a prickle of the nape hairs, an acceleration of the pulse, an atavistic memory of his fathers, who killed first with stone, and then with club...Robert Ruark

kootenay joe
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 3622
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:36 pm

Re: knife steel of the early 1900

Postby kootenay joe » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:28 am

Was "Wardlow's Crucible Cast Steel 1095 ? Or when was 1095 steel first used ?
Do you know what Rc range was used in the 'old days' ?
kj

User avatar
supratentorial
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:54 am

Re: knife steel of the early 1900

Postby supratentorial » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:08 am

kootenay joe wrote:Was "Wardlow's Crucible Cast Steel 1095 ? Or when was 1095 steel first used ?
Do you know what Rc range was used in the 'old days' ?
kj


Good questions. I've just seen a lot of the old ads marketing Wardlow's or unspecified English steel. I think the US steel industry was surpassing the English industry by the early 1900 so the English steel was either better quality or had better reputation. I haven't done research into the chemistry of the steels. Manufacturing certainly has changed a lot in 100 years. Some of the knife steel web databases have Wardlow steels listed but I don't know if any of them is similar to Wardlow's crucible steel from the early 1900s.

User avatar
KnifeSlinger#81
Posts: 1499
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:50 pm
Location: Tulsa, OK
Contact:

Re: knife steel of the early 1900

Postby KnifeSlinger#81 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:14 pm

kootenay joe wrote:Do you know what Rc range was used in the 'old days' ?
kj


It would be interesting to know. I suspect it was noticeably lower than the same or similar steels that are used today. The reason I suspect that is because all the "old day" knives I've sharpened take an edge quite a bit faster than their newer equivalents like gec or modern case, even ellenville old timers and uncle henrys. It's much quicker sharpening a chip out of an edge on the "old day" knives. However some of that ease of sharpening is because those pre war knives are normally quite a bit thinner behind the edge than most newer produced cutlery, except maybe opinels.
-Paul Thomas

Always looking to trade for old cattle & stockman knives, especially schrades.

User avatar
Mumbleypeg
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 3045
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:28 am
Location: Republic of Texas

Re: knife steel of the early 1900

Postby Mumbleypeg » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:02 pm

IMHO the tempering process has as much or more to do with the edge holding and ease of sharpening as the type of steel used. The steel no doubt has some effect but without proper tempering it won't work well regardless. Wardlow's Crucible Cast Steel. The key word here is probably "crucible" which to me implies the tempering process. Over 100 years ago Case built a reputation on "XX" - the double-tempering of their steel, which they wisely marketed into the trademark it became.

Too much attention and too much discussion nowadays about what kind of steel, and not enough attention about tempering. Just my 2 cents.

(BTW what ever happened to the "cent" symbol? :lol: This i-thingy I'm typing on doesn't seem to have such a symbol!)

Ken
Member AKTI, TSRA, NRA.

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
- Greorge Orwell
https://www.akti.org/

User avatar
supratentorial
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:54 am

Re: knife steel of the early 1900

Postby supratentorial » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:02 pm

Good posts.

KnifeSlinger#81 wrote:
kootenay joe wrote:Do you know what Rc range was used in the 'old days' ?
kj


It would be interesting to know. I suspect it was noticeably lower than the same or similar steels that are used today. The reason I suspect that is because all the "old day" knives I've sharpened take an edge quite a bit faster than their newer equivalents like gec or modern case, even ellenville old timers and uncle henrys. It's much quicker sharpening a chip out of an edge on the "old day" knives. However some of that ease of sharpening is because those pre war knives are normally quite a bit thinner behind the edge than most newer produced cutlery, except maybe opinels.


Makes sense to me. I'd need to do some digging to see if I can find some heat treat specifics. I have some old journal articles but I don't recall them giving specifics. I have seen the heat treat schedule from 1970s Schrade but that's much later. Schrades 1095 target HRc was in the range 57-59.

Mumbleypeg wrote:IMHO the tempering process has as much or more to do with the edge holding and ease of sharpening as the type of steel used. The steel no doubt has some effect but without proper tempering it won't work well regardless. Wardlow's Crucible Cast Steel. The key word here is probably "crucible" which to me implies the tempering process. Over 100 years ago Case built a reputation on "XX" - the double-tempering of their steel, which they wisely marketed into the trademark it became.

Too much attention and too much discussion nowadays about what kind of steel, and not enough attention about tempering. Just my 2 cents.

(BTW what ever happened to the "cent" symbol? :lol: This i-thingy I'm typing on doesn't seem to have such a symbol!)

Ken


Crucible steel is steel made by melting iron and other materials in a crucible. I think that died out in the late 60s but I'd need to look it up. Heat treating is done after the blades are forged. (note: Drop forging had replaced hand forging before the early 1900s. And later forging was replaced with blanking and stock removal.)

wLJKSDf.jpg

kootenay joe
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 3622
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:36 pm

Re: knife steel of the early 1900

Postby kootenay joe » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:59 pm

As i understand it tempering of a knife steel is to harden it so that it can take a good edge but not so hard that it becomes brittle and chips easily. I have been told that vintage USA knives were tempered to Rc of very low 50's. If tempered harder, that steel became brittle. Many of the commonly used blade steels now can be tempered to Rc in the 60 range (59-61) before becoming too brittle.
Yes, tempering is important but the steel involved controls what the best outcome can be.
kj

User avatar
Mumbleypeg
Gold Tier
Gold Tier
Posts: 3045
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:28 am
Location: Republic of Texas

Re: knife steel of the early 1900

Postby Mumbleypeg » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:29 am

kootenay joe wrote:Many of the commonly used blade steels now can be tempered to Rc in the 60 range (59-61) before becoming too brittle.
Yes, tempering is important but the steel involved controls what the best outcome can be.
kj


Or you could phrase it "the steel involved is important but tempering controls what the best outcome can be." :lol: ::handshake::

Either without the other doesn't work well.

Ken
Member AKTI, TSRA, NRA.

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
- Greorge Orwell
https://www.akti.org/

User avatar
supratentorial
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:54 am

Re: knife steel of the early 1900

Postby supratentorial » Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:21 am

It seems the Rockwell scale and testing equipment wasn't invented to the 1910s. So no Rockwell numbers for the steel in early 1900 knives unless tested present day.

This 1907 description of hardening and tempering talks about the color of the heat:
"Hardening is effected by bringing it to a red heat and dipping it in water up to the choil. The tang is left soft, so it may be readily filed, drilled, stamped with the maker's name , and fitted in the handle. Tempering is often accomplished by bringing the blades to a purple heat on a thin copper plate..."

Here's an excerpt from a hundred year old article on Remington:
"After the blades are pierced, making ready for the rivet, they are forwarded to the Heat Treatment Department where they are hardened and tempered... Men who are able to perform this work day in and day out, producing a high uniform standard, are rare birds. The long experience of the Company in hardening and tempering gun parts, bayonets and other like products has been utilized to the utmost in this process. This room is screened so the light is very evenly diffused daylight in order that the operators may easily judge the color of the metal. After the blades are hardened and tempered they are tested and straightened. In order to test the blades for flaws, each one is thrown against a block of steel. Blades which do not ring true are rejected."

This very basic article from the "Associated Cutlery Industries of America" in 1950 still describes the color of the heat but also gives a temperature range....

"Whereas originally temperature of heat was determined by the color perception of the workman, and his judgment alone determined the temperature of the quench, these are now determined without the hazard of human judgment by precision instruments known as pyrometers, with resulting uniformity in hardness obtained...."

bWfqleW.jpg

ZP7zE3R.jpg


Return to “Knife Related Q&A”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ScoutKnives and 10 guests