How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
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How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
I,ve got a couple of old knives that have been professionally cleaned. How much value does a knife decrease after its been cleaned/
- gsmith7158
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Re: How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
IT DEPENDS ON WHO IS BUYING IT . SOMETIMES THE VALUE INCREASES.
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Greg
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Greg
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- Railsplitter
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Re: How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
I'm very interested in this topic because it is a concept that I have often wondered about.
I've read many comments from folks stating "don't clean it, you'll decrease the value" yet I see cleaned vintage knives with high price tags on a regular basis. Would those same knives have had an even higher price tag in their uncleaned state?
I know that some folks wouldn't touch a cleaned vintage knife with a ten foot pole but I can only assume that in those cases, the concept of value is something other than dollars and cents.
I've read many comments from folks stating "don't clean it, you'll decrease the value" yet I see cleaned vintage knives with high price tags on a regular basis. Would those same knives have had an even higher price tag in their uncleaned state?
I know that some folks wouldn't touch a cleaned vintage knife with a ten foot pole but I can only assume that in those cases, the concept of value is something other than dollars and cents.
Rick T.
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"My knife money maketh itself wings!" mb>
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Re: How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
I prefer an uncleaned knife if I'm buying but there are many buyers who pay extra for an eighty year old knife with no patina. I've said for years now "shiny sells" especially on ebay. 54Rogers sells a ton of cleaned knives on ebay and has a large and devoted following who are willing to pony up some serious money for many of his offerings. He's about as good as they get when it comes to cleaning a knife and maintaining the original blade geometry and he gets paid handsomely for his skill.
Phil
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Re: How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
If the knife is otherwise unused, cleaning wouldn't be on my mind.
If the knife is used, making it look closer to mint will increase he value. In most cases .. IMO
But the term professionally cleaning can be abused, not many cleaning should be called professional. If the shoulders are burned, stamped barely left, blade profile all jacked up its not a pro job. The knife shouldn't scream CLEANED
A pro cleaning should make you wonder, how much it was actually cleaned ? Was it used? They should be that good honest disclosure of the knife should also be included.
I'm just some young punk and that's my opinion
If the knife is used, making it look closer to mint will increase he value. In most cases .. IMO
But the term professionally cleaning can be abused, not many cleaning should be called professional. If the shoulders are burned, stamped barely left, blade profile all jacked up its not a pro job. The knife shouldn't scream CLEANED
A pro cleaning should make you wonder, how much it was actually cleaned ? Was it used? They should be that good honest disclosure of the knife should also be included.
I'm just some young punk and that's my opinion
- americanedgetech
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Re: How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
This topic keenly interests me as well.
I appreciate both sides of the discussion, and I still do not know where my loyalties lie.
Well done restorations are a thing of beauty but at the same time the quote from Gangs of New York comes to mind.
"The blood stays on the blade". There is a reason for that quote. History is in that blade.
Untouched "mint" knives are (IMHO) the pinnacle as far as a collectible goes, and imitating that without disclosure I feel is "shady" to put a fair word on it. But that same knife in "rust bucket" condition is worthless to many people. Sooo the drive to at LEAST make the knife presentable is there. Then it become "Where do I stop"?
Most of you also know the harm that a poor restoration can do in most cases so I will avoid "buff jobs" altogether. If all of the crisp machine working is gone, and the knife shines like a diamond... That is a worthless knife to me.
A very skilled craftsman can do amazing work, and that too is something to consider. You are buying both the knife, AND the talent that it took to give that knife a new lease on life (so to speak). BUT Again... you have to have good "bones" to work with. In that case should you have touched it at all?
Yeah... I convinced myself in this thread. Un-touched, and re-worked knives BOTH have a place in collecting!
I am beginning to see a distinct pattern in this. I believe it is an individual decision. Based both on the collector, and the particular knife.
I think I am going to stay on the fence, and keep the condition, and value of the knife as a personal choice based on the knife itself.
I appreciate both sides of the discussion, and I still do not know where my loyalties lie.
Well done restorations are a thing of beauty but at the same time the quote from Gangs of New York comes to mind.
"The blood stays on the blade". There is a reason for that quote. History is in that blade.
Untouched "mint" knives are (IMHO) the pinnacle as far as a collectible goes, and imitating that without disclosure I feel is "shady" to put a fair word on it. But that same knife in "rust bucket" condition is worthless to many people. Sooo the drive to at LEAST make the knife presentable is there. Then it become "Where do I stop"?
Most of you also know the harm that a poor restoration can do in most cases so I will avoid "buff jobs" altogether. If all of the crisp machine working is gone, and the knife shines like a diamond... That is a worthless knife to me.
A very skilled craftsman can do amazing work, and that too is something to consider. You are buying both the knife, AND the talent that it took to give that knife a new lease on life (so to speak). BUT Again... you have to have good "bones" to work with. In that case should you have touched it at all?
Yeah... I convinced myself in this thread. Un-touched, and re-worked knives BOTH have a place in collecting!
I am beginning to see a distinct pattern in this. I believe it is an individual decision. Based both on the collector, and the particular knife.
I think I am going to stay on the fence, and keep the condition, and value of the knife as a personal choice based on the knife itself.
Ken Mc.
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- supratentorial
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Re: How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
An original crocus or glazed finish is very different than the finish on a "cleaned" knife. Even if it was cleaned "professionally".
A factory original knife has greater historical value. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it has more monetary value. The market value depends on who is buying. There are folks who don't read books or study knives and don't know the difference. And to some folks, knives are just pocket jewelry.
There is certainly a market for cleaned knives on Ebay. There's also a market for fakes on Ebay. They overlap quite a bit which is not surprising since the finishing steps are often the same.
Some dealers are upfront and honest about the condition. Others not so much.
A factory original knife has greater historical value. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it has more monetary value. The market value depends on who is buying. There are folks who don't read books or study knives and don't know the difference. And to some folks, knives are just pocket jewelry.
There is certainly a market for cleaned knives on Ebay. There's also a market for fakes on Ebay. They overlap quite a bit which is not surprising since the finishing steps are often the same.
Some dealers are upfront and honest about the condition. Others not so much.
- americanedgetech
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Re: How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
FleaBay IS a mine field when it comes to almost everything sold there. From "T" shirts to cars...
You have to know something about what you are looking for or the chances of getting "scammed" are about 50/50 in my opinion. The advantage of the bay is quantity.
If you know what you are looking at then it is a paradise for buyers. Hmmm no 1947 Coca-Cola bottles... By the time you go get a cold drink, and search again... there they are!
You do have to know what you are looking at tho. 100% of the time.
You have to know something about what you are looking for or the chances of getting "scammed" are about 50/50 in my opinion. The advantage of the bay is quantity.
If you know what you are looking at then it is a paradise for buyers. Hmmm no 1947 Coca-Cola bottles... By the time you go get a cold drink, and search again... there they are!
You do have to know what you are looking at tho. 100% of the time.
Ken Mc.
WTB Kershaw 2120 MACHO Lockback Parts knife
I need a pile side scale. THX!
WTB Kershaw 2120 MACHO Lockback Parts knife
I need a pile side scale. THX!
Re: How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
I'd be interested to know exactly what "professional cleaning" consists of (presumably the OP is referring to cleaning a vintage highly collectible knife) ? Does it mean removing patina and making a vintage knife look spanky new ... or just carefully de-crudding and cleaning/oiling so it runs nicely ?
pffffft that's not a knife ......... now THAT'S a knife !! Crocodile Dundee
John
John
Re: How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
Lansky1 wrote:I'd be interested to know exactly what "professional cleaning" consists of (presumably the OP is referring to cleaning a vintage highly collectible knife) ? Does it mean removing patina and making a vintage knife look spanky new ... or just carefully de-crudding and cleaning/oiling so it runs nicely ?
Excellent question!
Personally, I favor your second definition: "Carefully de-crudding and cleaning/oiling so it runs nicely"
Dale
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- peanut740
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Re: How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
I personally would call that conservation.There are few professional cleaners in my opinion.Those that are use power equipment.There are many knife bushwhackers out there trying to clean knives the same way, that have no idea what they are doing ruining some otherwise decent knives.orvet wrote:Lansky1 wrote:I'd be interested to know exactly what "professional cleaning" consists of (presumably the OP is referring to cleaning a vintage highly collectible knife) ? Does it mean removing patina and making a vintage knife look spanky new ... or just carefully de-crudding and cleaning/oiling so it runs nicely ?
Excellent question!
Personally, I favor your second definition: "Carefully de-crudding and cleaning/oiling so it runs nicely"
Roger
Re: How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
I like the that idea also. I question a knife that is over fifty years old and it has clearly been used, yet it shines like it just came from the factory. I wonder just what it took to make it look like that. Regarding the effect on value, I guess it depends on who wants it. I have chosen not to bid on a couple of knives that had been heavily cleaned and then over priced. But it was the price not the cleaning that made me pass.orvet wrote:Lansky1 wrote:I'd be interested to know exactly what "professional cleaning" consists of (presumably the OP is referring to cleaning a vintage highly collectible knife) ? Does it mean removing patina and making a vintage knife look spanky new ... or just carefully de-crudding and cleaning/oiling so it runs nicely ?
Excellent question!
Personally, I favor your second definition: "Carefully de-crudding and cleaning/oiling so it runs nicely"
Mel
Re: How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
Mel, I think your statement "I wonder just what it took to make it look like that", is the question one should always keep in mind when evaluating the purchase merits of any vintage collectible knife that is very shiny and new looking!
I have some polished and buffed vintage folders and I am okay with them because it did not involve a heavy handed approach and I did get get them for a fair and reasonable price. There are certainly some well preserved mint vintage knives out there (few and far between) but the over buffed and polished shiny new vintage knives are plentiful on EBay.
However, I now more than ever try to find examples that are not heavily cleaned and/or buffed and polished but instead retain a good amount of honest patina and where the tang markings are still crisp. It takes more work and sweat to find these honest old knives but they are out there and worth the effort IMHO. Heavily buffed knives with blades that sparkle and that have rounded edge transitions and weak tang markings as a result are a real turn off to me! I will certainly concede that bright, shiny, polished, sparkling new looking vintage knives draw attention a crowd and sell but I avoid them now. These two photos of a 100 plus year old Terrier utility/camp knife is the kind of vintage folder I am attracted to and really value It has patina, spotting, primary spear blade wear and has been sharpened but it has not been messed with or boosted and retains all its historical bumps, bruises and evidence of use but was well cared for and I really value and like that!
I have some polished and buffed vintage folders and I am okay with them because it did not involve a heavy handed approach and I did get get them for a fair and reasonable price. There are certainly some well preserved mint vintage knives out there (few and far between) but the over buffed and polished shiny new vintage knives are plentiful on EBay.
However, I now more than ever try to find examples that are not heavily cleaned and/or buffed and polished but instead retain a good amount of honest patina and where the tang markings are still crisp. It takes more work and sweat to find these honest old knives but they are out there and worth the effort IMHO. Heavily buffed knives with blades that sparkle and that have rounded edge transitions and weak tang markings as a result are a real turn off to me! I will certainly concede that bright, shiny, polished, sparkling new looking vintage knives draw attention a crowd and sell but I avoid them now. These two photos of a 100 plus year old Terrier utility/camp knife is the kind of vintage folder I am attracted to and really value It has patina, spotting, primary spear blade wear and has been sharpened but it has not been messed with or boosted and retains all its historical bumps, bruises and evidence of use but was well cared for and I really value and like that!
Lloyd
- gsmith7158
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Re: How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
I think that a true professional cleaner knows how far he can go with a particular knife. The knife needs to be in pretty good condition in the first place to achieve a shiny new finish as most cleaning involves a certain amount of metal loss. You can usually tell when someone has gone too far. I personally don't mind buying a cleaned knife if it has been done correctly.
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Greg
IF YOU AIN'T BUYING OR LOOKING AT A KNIFE THEN YOU AIN'T LIVING.
Always looking to buy good quality Empire knives.
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Greg
IF YOU AIN'T BUYING OR LOOKING AT A KNIFE THEN YOU AIN'T LIVING.
Always looking to buy good quality Empire knives.
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Re: How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
Sometimes I think it is helpful to have tangible context to discuss instead of a philosophy.
So... here are some pictures of an actual knife that I had cleaned.
Please feel welcome to share your assessment of the impact to value from cleaning the knife pictured below. Here is a list of the major categories of cleaning that were completed in case you want to comment on the impact to value on each category of cleaning.
1. Removed (most) of the paint that was on the handle.
2. Removed red / orange rust that was on the blade. Note this also removed some patina.
3. Smoothed dents, dings, and scratches on the bolster
My opinion is that the value of this particular knife was diminished by abuse and neglect - not by cleaning it AFTER it was abused and neglected.
So... here are some pictures of an actual knife that I had cleaned.
Please feel welcome to share your assessment of the impact to value from cleaning the knife pictured below. Here is a list of the major categories of cleaning that were completed in case you want to comment on the impact to value on each category of cleaning.
1. Removed (most) of the paint that was on the handle.
2. Removed red / orange rust that was on the blade. Note this also removed some patina.
3. Smoothed dents, dings, and scratches on the bolster
My opinion is that the value of this particular knife was diminished by abuse and neglect - not by cleaning it AFTER it was abused and neglected.
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Re: How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
Well done Jerry.I would call that one cleaned up.
Roger
Re: How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
Jerry. To me your knife looks properly cleaned and was been done without removing any metal, which can be achieved by any of us and is good for the knife. Here are a couple other examples. The first two are knives that have been "professionally restored", imo, proper reprofilling of the blades and original style finish put back on the blades. The third picture is done by an amateur that only goal was to leave it shiny. Bevels are removed from the blade by severe buffing and are now rounded off. Yes, it's very shiny and pretty but not restored back to original condition, not the kind of knife I want to own very many of.
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Re: How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
There are a thousand answers to this question. Variables include but are not limited to; the knife involved, the individual who does the cleaning, the definition of a "professional", the individual who owns the knife and his/her expectations for the finished product. Let's not forget the X factor, the opinions of various potential buyers if the knife ever comes up for sale.
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Jerry D.
This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012
- americanedgetech
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Re: How much value does it take away from a knife if its been professionally cleaned/
I believe it was Mr Levine (could have been someone else, I forget) that explained to me that the tooling used in the past consisted of hard/sharp edged buffers. Material like paper/wood pulp was used.
Those wheels were kept at 90* angles across the face so the maker could use the buffing process to highlight, and sharpen the lines on a blade. Time was taken to keep every line true.
Today most "pros" are using cloth wheels that have no way of making a straight line or sharp transitions.
Because of that info I have a new view on what it takes to "re-work" a knife.
The same gentleman went on to explain that "restoring" a knife is a term used too loosely. What most call restored are actually knives that have had metal removed in that process so technically speaking they are NOT restored. They are modified.
Just my 2 cents. I found his insights enlightening.
Those wheels were kept at 90* angles across the face so the maker could use the buffing process to highlight, and sharpen the lines on a blade. Time was taken to keep every line true.
Today most "pros" are using cloth wheels that have no way of making a straight line or sharp transitions.
Because of that info I have a new view on what it takes to "re-work" a knife.
The same gentleman went on to explain that "restoring" a knife is a term used too loosely. What most call restored are actually knives that have had metal removed in that process so technically speaking they are NOT restored. They are modified.
Just my 2 cents. I found his insights enlightening.
Ken Mc.
WTB Kershaw 2120 MACHO Lockback Parts knife
I need a pile side scale. THX!
WTB Kershaw 2120 MACHO Lockback Parts knife
I need a pile side scale. THX!