All About Pocket Knives

David Yellowhorse is well known for his knives and his customizations, particularly for Bucks but for other brands as well. Case has notified him that he is not to do custom work on any Case knife unless he pays them.

I think this is likely to be illegal as it seems to me he can do what he likes with a knife that he or another person have bought and paid for.
At any rate, DY, is apparently not going to challenge this and will cease working on any Case knives.

Very hard for me to figure the motivation of Case. Anyone have any ideas?

I would have to agree, I do not believe Case has a leg to stand on here. If he chooses to customize a knife, then that is his option and Case has no say.

That's like Ford telling a truck owner that he cannot customize the truck with a plow, Lift Kit or whatever he wants....RIDICULOUS

Sounds like DY might have had some sort of incident with Case ....... I would love to know the whole story though

Tom

The same thought I had, i.e. was there an incident. But, subject to correction by somebody, I am unaware that DY had a collaboration deal with Case. I do not recall any.

According to DY.. This affects Limited Editions and no others.. Just got this from someone that talked directly to DY.. John

Over on the Case website forum a member posted he has contacted David Yellowhorse, who reportedly said this action is limited to knives marketed as Case commemoratives (limited editions) only. He said if an individual buys a knife and sends it to David Yellowhorse for customization, Case is not trying to prohibit that. This is according to member posts. I haven't seen any posts regarding this from a Case employee yet.

IMHO if someone buys knives, modifies them, and re-sells under his name (which Yellowhorse does), I can see some merit in Case asking for a royalty. To some degree it may have to do with whether there is any implication being made, directly or inferred, that these are authorized Case products. I'd have to know more about the relationship to say I agree with it or not. And I am NOT a lawyer!

Ken

Any trademark attorneys on this forum?

Also need to know the events between Yellowhorse and W.R. Case.

Bob

I am facebook friends with David Yellowhorse and he announced it there in length. I think he would still customize a case knife if a customer wanted. I think the problem might be when they try to sell it online at Ebay or another site.
At one time I had some Case Trappers that had John Wayne on the blades that I listed on Ebay. Case had Ebay remove the listings saying the knife wasn't genuine. It was an authentic trapper but they said that when the trappers were customized that there was no right to use the John Wayne name on the knives. I believe the trappers were in the 80's or thereabouts.
I wonder if Ebay would remove a David Yellowhorse Case knife if a new one is listed? I see nothing wrong myself with David customizing a knife and selling it but Case is a big outfit and big rules in the world today.

Tom

If I'm in Case's legal or marketing organizations, and I see aftermarket modifications like for example KKK and other "sensitive" or controversial emblems made to knives with my company name on them, it gets my attention. Case did not conceive, make or market these knives with such emblems on them, but the Case name is still on the tang. I've seen comments and questions asking when Case made these, the implication being that these were Case-made. Where do you draw the line? How to maintain some control over your company's image and good name?

Having worked in marketing for a large corporation I can easily understand the dilemma faced by Case. If you knowingly let one do it, but try to stop another, you leave the door open. Someone you do not approve of will hire a lawyer and take you to court saying you're discriminatory. Like it or not that's the litigious society we live in. And "big" means money, which attracts lawyers like fleas to a dog.

Ken

Ken has a point. If a company does not try to protect its name or trademark, after a while it becomes more or less impossible to do so. There was a case in the news this week about Tiffany suing a company for selling rings which were marketed as Tiffany but not marked as Tiffany and not made by them. Maybe Case figured it needed to draw a line.

A few years ago, Case stopped a disabled man in Atlanta from customizing their knives. He did it for a little extra money.

I used to see him at the monthly meetings of The Chattahoochie Cutlery Club.

David Clark knows him well.

If I'm not mistaken, Case has also attempted this with the "Painted Pony" folks.

Charlie Noyes

Although I am not an attorney and am not conversant in trade mark infringement(which I think may be the case here)I know that many manufacturers will actively pursue litigation against anyone whom they believe is disparaging their products.
Two that come immediately to mind are Rolex(watches)and Ford Motor Company. I assume that many watch manufacturers are doing this now as there are so many "replica" watches out there now ranging from flat out horrible to nearly indistinguishable from real.
Ford not only goes after people who produce aftermarket and reproduction items for antique automobiles for using the trademark script logo but to even the blue oval. I am currently working on a car that belongs to a company that once used the Ford script in their advertising and products and had to remove it from everything;including the castings for their aluminum cylinder heads. Not only do they do it for trademark protection but I believe most for product liability issues.
Not surprising considering the number of,"replica"(read fake)knives coming out of the PRC.Some of them are nearly indistinguishable from the real thing.A case in point:
A "replica" Microtech Troodon that is not only an accurate copy of a real one but even the packaging would suggest it was made in the USA.A real one is nearly $500 and this one was $40. Don't need to do the math to figure out why Microtech would(should)go after these people.

Not a lawyer either. The owner of Lionel Trains went after company's selling reproduction Standard Gauge trains and accessory buildings. Lot's of whining at some train swap meets because the originals were expensive. But they had a ton of money in the business and said they would be sued so most just stopped. Main striking point as I recall was exact color paints used and as I recall many were made in Korea. Yes Rolex tm. went after many counterfeits in stores and flea markets. We had a chain of stores in Michigan start selling Rolex and were not authorized dealers. They bought one and traced the serial number to a dealer over seas that was supplying the stores and went after him. I say "good for them."

The selling of fakes is no way the same as buying a product, customizing it, then reselling it. My opinion is if Mr. Yellowhorse owns them he can do what he wants with them (or anyone else for that matter).

How is what Mr. Yellowhorse doing any different from what other knife mechanics do when they rehandle and resell knives?

edge213 wrote:The selling of fakes is no way the same as buying a product, customizing it, then reselling it. My opinion is if Mr. Yellowhorse owns them he can do what he wants with them (or anyone else for that matter).

How is what Mr. Yellowhorse doing any different from what other knife mechanics do when they rehandle and resell knives?

I agree, if David Yellowhorse buys a knife, customizes it and then resells it I don't see how that's much different than me buying a white Chevrolet painting it blue and then reselling it. Chevrolet knows the color is not a factory color and they won't warranty the paint job, if the car is still under warranty.
A suspect some of the problem may have come from people buying a knife that David Yellowhorse has customized and then returning it to Case for a warranty replacement of a broken blade or something else. I can understand Case's refusal to warranty a knife that has been customized by anyone. I don't understand how they can tell him he doesn't have the right to buy their product and do with it what he pleases.

There is a slight difference between what Mr. Yellowhorse does and the majority of the knives I and many other knife mechanics work on; the majority of them are from companies who are no longer in business. The American made Schrade and Camillus knives were made by companies that were bankrupt and/or out of business the same is true for Cattaraugus, Remington, Pal, Schrade Cut Co, Schrade Walden, Robeson, etc., are all out of business.
Granted a repair is different than customizing work but often a repair results in a customized knife because it ends up in an upgrade of material over what was originally on the knife and many guys like to add a something special while the knife is a part.

As I'm writing this I was struck by the difference between Case and the old Schrade company.
Case does not want anyone customizing their knives apparently. On the other hand Schrade found a guy who was customizing their knives, Herman Williams, and made him an official repairman and spokesman. I think he also did some prototype work and some special custom items.

Case seeks to prevent people from customizing their products. Schrade seemed to promote it and revel in it.
I'm not sure that that makes a significant statement about either company, but the two approaches are definitely 180° out from one another.

Granted there may be some circumstance we are unaware of, but it seems a very inept PR move by Case.

edge213 wrote:The selling of fakes is no way the same as buying a product, customizing it, then reselling it. My opinion is if Mr. Yellowhorse owns them he can do what he wants with them (or anyone else for that matter).

How is what Mr. Yellowhorse doing any different from what other knife mechanics do when they rehandle and resell knives?

I would agree 100% with you. My post was only to show what Case may or may not be thinking. Ford's main complaint with aftermarket manufacturers was that many of the products they were selling featured the Ford script or the blue oval;both of which were Ford trademarks. This would tend to give the impression(to the uninitiated at least)that these products were either produced or endorsed by Ford which they were not. Ford did say that if these people wished to do this they would first have to pass a Ford reliability check for each part and also pay Ford a specified royalty for each item. Not strange since many companies produced parts under license from the original maker. This occurs in the knife industry as well. Jason Williams;who along with his stepfather Bill McHenry are credited with the invention of the Axis Lock which is featured on someone's knife and they are paid royalties for each knife sold(I believe).
As for the David Yellowhorse situation,I really think Case is S.O.L.and would likely lose in court if they choose to proceed.Problem is many small outfits cannot afford an expensive court case to drag on for possibly years.

If it's really a Ford product you can tell because it will eventually explode or catch fire or Found Off the Road Dead. Owned several Ford's they rusted to death. ftd

I have a simple question. If i re-handle a case knife am I in violation of Case's referendum?

It seems to me if Case blocked David from modifying their knives that it blocks anyone. How in the world can they do this?

It's almost like not being able to host a "Superbowl Party"

WTH is this world coming to?

Everyone in such an uproar about everything.

Just take a breath. look around and be nice.

BTW rant not directed towards anyone on AAPK. This is just a news story that is frustrating!!!@

and does this mean that once everyone will protest that our vintage/antique knives from Case will hold no value?

Is case becoming Donald Trump?

I'm going to lose sleep about this. Snap Crackle Pop!

David in the words of our President... Your fired

Sorry everyone this just pisses me off and I'm not even sure if the story is true.

Going to back off now.

This seems to me a lot of opinions and indignation about something we know little or nothing about.

Fact is, David Yellowhorse (and several relatives having the Yellowhorse surname) have a substantial business enterprise. Yellowhorse has a brick-and-mortar storefront, an on-line storefront, and third party retail sales outlets. This isn't some part-time hobbyist re-handling knives. Yellowhorse has a substantial and well organized business.

Previous posts comparing this to someone buying an automobile, repainting or modifying it, and then selling it, are not apples-to-apples comparisons. Nor is an individual repairing or re-handling knives in his home shop. Case reportedly asked Yellowhorse for a licensing agreement. Maybe it's being negotiated. Maybe he said no and Case then asked him to stop. Maybe we will never know.

A more apt comparison is the NCAA, NFL, NBA, or MLB stopping the unlicensed sale of products with their copyrighted emblems on them, by organized business entities. As stated in an earlier post "where do you draw the line?"

Ken

Mumbleypeg wrote:This seems to me a lot of opinions and indignation about something we know little or nothing about.

A more apt comparison is the NCAA, NFL, NBA, or MLB stopping the unlicensed sale of products with their copyrighted emblems on them, by organized business entities. As stated in an earlier post "where do you draw the line?"

Ken

I agree Ken we don't know much about this at this point.

On your second statement I'm not sure that comparison holds up. The production and sales of unlicensed sports products is a huge business. They are manufacturing goods using the NCAA, NFL, NBA or MLB's logos or other intellectual property and they are doing so without paying the necessary royalty. They make a counterfeit product and sell it is a legitimate product endorsed by one of these organizations.

Yellowhorse on the other hand, is buying a legitimate Case product and modifying it. It then sells it as a modified or customized Case product. No misrepresentation here that I can see.
Case made their money when they sold the product to him in the first place. He paid for their name and their product.
He hasn't taken anything away from their product, he has in fact added to it.
Whether they like the addition or not may possibly be the crux of the issue.

I definitely agree with you that we don't know a lot about this and we may never know, but as someone who does from time to time customize a Case knife I would like to know the ramifications of this. Is Case going to come after me because I put a bone handle on an old Delrin handled Case farmer jack? This does concern me a bit. I'm not sure the whole answer is size; I'm not sure there going after Yellowhorse because he operates on a much larger scale than I or most of the knife mechanics on this forum.

edge213 wrote:The selling of fakes is no way the same as buying a product, customizing it, then reselling it. My opinion is if Mr. Yellowhorse owns them he can do what he wants with them (or anyone else for that matter).

How is what Mr. Yellowhorse doing any different from what other knife mechanics do when they rehandle and resell knives?

So is Case going to go after Glenn and Orvet? I don't think they (Case) have a leg to stand on.

Interesting development in the Yellowhorse/Case saga makes me wonder how much truth there was to the OP in this thread. This along with several other patterns like it appeared on the Shepherd Hills Cutlery website. Says it's a Brian Yellowhorse and Case collaboration, so I'm guessing any speculation about hard feelings between Case and the Yellowhorse family must have been unfounded.

Ken

Mumbleypeg wrote:Interesting development in the Yellowhorse/Case saga makes me wonder how much truth there was to the OP in this thread. This along with several other patterns like it appeared on the Shepherd Hills Cutlery website. Says it's a Brian Yellowhorse and Case collaboration, so I'm guessing any speculation about hard feelings between Case and the Yellowhorse family must have been unfounded.

Ken

I got that Catalog yesterday. I can't say that I was a fan of very much in there. I think Case needs a new General manager or at least some new blood in the design team.