All About Pocket Knives

Hello fellow members,

So a question or two arose recently on one of my ad posts regarding tang stamp quality in the era of the Great Depression, CASE TESTED era. I can only speak to CASE knives as that is what I know and own, and certainly no expert at that!

That being said, I would like to have some input in regards to CASE and other manufacturers knives as far as stamp quality and how that pertains, if it does, to knife authenticity "ONLY after the entire knie is read" and is as expected. Not referring to an obvious counterfeit stamp, just not of the quality that one would expect or that has been documented (the never seen stamp effect). I will not be posting a knife in particular as to debate authenticity or not, but more of a general observation/opinion based on your collections and experience. I know every knife is unique, some obviously are not well documented and there seems to always be an exception to the rule, at least as far as CASE knives are concerned.
Knives, in my opinion, were viewed as tools back in the day, with little thought to collector value. A tang stamp never cut a damn thing as far as I know. Based on the frugality of the times, tang stamp dyes were expensive and hand made and were repaired rather than discarded in my opinion. Until the said dies were completley unuasable to justify the expense of buying another. My opinion. A doctor going to not buy a knife to crush pills if the tang stamp was imperfect? A leather craftsman not going to purcahse a knife he needs to do his trade due to the stamp not being "precise", that was otherwise "solid" and lived up to the intended task based on the rest of the knife quality. Viewed as tools as I said. That is not to say the oldies are not quality from any manufacturer, as they were made to perform, which they did. If they were not made of quality, what old knives would we have in our collections after all these years? The CASE pre TESTED era knives had crude and sometimes unclear stamps, again, in my opinion.

What I know ( which may not be much)...

I have about 100 to 200 knives from CASE TESTED era and prior, never counted. I also have at least the same amount or more in XX era. About the same or more post XX. My point is that I have various examples to look at in hand. The entire knife being totally perfect in all of the "read" aspects happens. CASE was extremely frugal, not sure about other companies. They never threw away a part that could be used. It is well documented that they did not discard blades, handles or shields, etc that could be used instead of tossed out. Numerous posts and knifes attest to this fact in my opinion. A tang stamp dye was treated the same way due to expense in my opinion. Repaired before being discarded. So no, all stamps are NOT perfect IE: font may be different from knife to knife in the same manufacturer/era or year, in my opinion. Does not make the said knife a counterfeit, IMO.

I have numerous example of knives, including those posted by other members, that include having blank shields , model stamps in TESTED era when that was not the norm, old transition knives that utilize shields and blades from previous years/eras... The list goes on. Don't think I need to go there as far as posting links/examples, you get the idea.

Just wondering what you all think in regard to this post and my personal observations and your experience with perfect or imperfect tang stamps on CASE or other manufacturers? I prefer to read the whole knife and decide if it "looks off" on any part of the whole knife read and then it goes to the Counterfeit Forum for input if that is the case.

Regards, Jerry

Hi, Since I know next to nothing on the subject I feel the need to be the first one to reply. I agree with you on the frugality of most american companies during those times. There were wars going on and a great depression just to mention a couple reasons why beyond the fact that people in general were more "thrifty" and most especially companies producing common everyday tools and necessities would use a die until worn or let bad tang stamps (mis-strikes) go onto the market.Heck, even up until now CASE and other knife makers may miss-strike a tang stamp but not consider it a second, I think it depends on the legibility of the company logo, and some collectors search out and like the "double stamps" etc. Even things more important than a 10 cent knife and were to be made to last for a good time like CURRENCY went into circulation with all kinds of flaws which you would think to be a NO NO because they could just remelt and re-strike but it seemed even the government would wait until the end of a run before swapping dies at times. Even recent paper money has gone into circulation with upside down backside print etc. So there is no doubt in my mind and in my opinion that the older tool companies and cutlery companies used the dies until legibility of the company logo was getting faint and the timing of the replacement die being made or on order and waiting for it to arrive for replacement. And if you read the article about the turn of the century cutlers in the USA buying imported knives and washing off or buffing off the etching which stated country of origin and then stamping the knife tangs WHILE THEY WERE COMPLETELY ASSEMBLED with their makers mark or the hardware stores name who ordered them etc. giving even more room for stamping errors which shouldn't, couldn't and wouldn't be corrected out of a commonsense line of reasoning (frugality if you will).

whoops, So I guess my answer/opinion to your question is NO.

Jerry, my Case knives are from various era's, most all modern era (post-1969), and thus the stamps vary in design and are harder to compare but they do vary in depth of striking from "normal" to pretty deep. My biggest collection of knives with the same stamp are 300 series Bucks made by Camillus and 100 series made by Buck in CA - I look at a lot of them in addition to the ones I own. The tang stamp depth or "striking" certainly varies - a few will be quite light and some are very deep - most (of course) are right there at the "baby bear" level - not too deep, not too light. Some have extraneous marks on them - a stray mark that got there somehow unintentionally but didn't cause the knife to be rejected for sale. I have a recently bought (last summer) Bear & Son Stockman which has half of the asterisk mark they use for date codes - makes me unsure if it was intended to be there or not, but what was the year was made? OH

Ps. just check out 1970's Case "dots" - some are higher on the tang than others on the same model of knife - on some you can count them easily and on some they are so low you can only guess - the bolster hides them completely and you cannot see them at all (unless you disassemble the knife).

I am enjoying this fine discussion! Adding my 2 cents with a picture of a tang stamp on a blade that was replaced for me by an AAPK member. I asked him the question, "Was the replacement blade a 2nd?" The member said it was a blade out of a parts knife he had bought. This being a 2001 blade, shows again that placement of a tang stamp on a blade is not an exact science. All the logic that others have mentioned concerning manufacturing, era, condition of dies, financial condition, etc.. should certainly be factored into determining what is or is not a "real" knife. Takes a lot more knowledge than I have, but none the less it is very intresting. Treefarmer

Because of counterfeiters I tend to question anything. Unfortunately a drop of speculation breeds a gallon of doubt. Especially when $$ is involved and it's a frequently counterfeited brand/era. I know just enough to be easily scared off

Great input Gentlemen!

DJ, great point about the double strike stamps. I have a scarce 71' Cheetatah that was double struck, totaly authentic knife. Just hit once real soft so they hit if again. Not real noticable with the naked eye can be seen easily under a loupe. Not perfect, still left the factory and is totally authentic, but for me, doesn't bother me since it is the real deal and believe this things happened.

TreeFarmer and OH,

Good valid points concerning off center stamps and great example pics! OH, you bring up a good point about CASE dotted knives. Anyone ever seen a CASE 70's dotted knife were the dots were not "full circles"? The dots are not totally round but look more like a "cresent moon", best I can describe. Wheter a damaged die or a non flat strike, don't know. Still a whole knife read in addition to the stamp reveals an authentic knife.

Back to off center stamps...

So i just got these 2 identical CASE 1977' 5111-1/2LSSP "Blue Scroll" Engraved Cheetah knives in on Friday. Identical besides serial numbers and stag fingerprint. Rare knives, 1000 made. Both stamped with serial number above tang shoulder. The blades and swinguards on theses knives have absolutely no play, wobble or slop. Very tight. Here is my point, please look at the attached pic. Tangs are the same hieght and width but the stamp location is different. You can really tell on the pile side model stamps. There is a 1/32" or more difference in the location of the stamp hieght. Don't have a pic but when the knives are locked and open, using the swing guard as reference, location difference is clearly seen. Top knive model stamp is about 1/32" above the swing guard where as the bottom knife's model stamp is partially obscured by the swing guard. Does not make either knife altered or a fake, just slighty different. Money back guarantee, seller cover all shipping, I kept both as it is rare knife. I have another example of this knife on the way, I will check it out and see how it compares.

This is where obviously reading the entire knife comes into play into play, in my opinion. I recently had a non CASE cattle whittler knife I gave to a knife buddy. The knife has been posted here and no one can pinpoint the stamp and blade etch as far as manufacturer through books, internet seraches and gained knowledge. Some very knowledge members researched it and chimed in. Mystery knife for now. No one knows at this time. The knife is solid and well made. My point is this, to my recollection, not one member stated "never seen one, not on the internet, not in my books, so it must be a fake. They read the rest of the knife.

Obvious unspoken common sense apllies here. If something looks totally off, that is one thing. I personally look at my knives very carefully to learn as much as I can. Sometimes for a couple of hours on one knife. My point is, I personally don't overanylze every minor imperfection if the knife "reads well as a whole", as they occurred sometimes as part of the manufacturing process for various reasons. Just they way I do it. Your approach and opinion may vary and I respect that.

I understand your point Brian and we all have to be careful.

Regards, Jerry

Just a personal observation here, but it seems like a lot of the Case Tested Era knives had tang stamps that weren't perfectly flat. By that I mean that one end of the tang stamp was deeper than the other end. Yes, they were made as tools and not for collecting unlike many of the modern knives. Personally, I believe Case did their best work when they were making tools and not trying to put out as many handle colors as possible for the pattern collectors. Somehow I just can't picture my Grandfather carrying a Case knife with a handle color called "Periwinkle" (Yes sadly, they exist).

Elvis wrote:Just a personal observation here, but it seems like a lot of the Case Tested Era knives had tang stamps that weren't perfectly flat. By that I mean that one end of the tang stamp was deeper than the other end. Yes, they were made as tools and not for collecting unlike many of the modern knives. Personally, I believe Case did their best work when they were making tools and not trying to put out as many handle colors as possible for the pattern collectors. Somehow I just can't picture my Grandfather carrying a Case knife with a handle color called "Periwinkle" (Yes sadly, they exist).

Hey Bob,

Thanks for chiming in. I personally agree on all points you stated on stamps and use as tools.

I digress breifly as to your other point,
Nothing against any of the collectors that prefer the newer knives but the old CASE blade action, snap, overall quaility is much more consistent in the 1980 and prior years and eras, in my opinion. At least the ones I have.
Yes sir, like you said about your Grandfather (laughed like hell by the way), couldn't see Dad carrying a "Bengal Bone" knife back in the day if they were around or even recently when that handle was available. For EDC, he just wanted a good working knife (commonly a Barlow was his choice) and if it had some decent old bone or stag, that was a plus. Kind of like a older car that maybe wasn't the prettiest (maybe it was), but in either case, it ran like a top.

Jerry

Good question, I would have thought there would be more responses than this.

Here is a picture of a tang stamp, question: is it real or counterfeit?

Miller Bro`s wrote:Good question, I would have thought there would be more responses than this.

Here is a picture of a tang stamp, question: is it real of counterfeit?

Dimitri:It looks like a genuine stamp that someone has tried to bring out by the use of a die grinder with a really small bit.It also looks like the choil has been reworked too.Blade looks to have been polished with fine sandpaper.

I really don't know enough about counterfit knives to be 100% sure on anything, but my thoughts are
that a genuine knife that has any amount of rust or pitting at the tang and is cleaned, ground, polished may
well end up with a stamp that looks worse than a high end fake. Any knife that shows that it has been cleaned
extensively can have the original stamp shallowed and the edges of the characters rolled or marred. The best
course of action when looking at a rough stamp is to read the entire knife. Not every original knife will have
a pristine stamp and not every fake will have a poor one. I know this is not a real straight forward answer
Jerry, but there isn't a single answer to your question. Look close, ask folks here and be careful is about
all a guy can do.

IM

Miller Bros stamp looks like crap but is probably authentic. Like a lot of knives it appears that it has been heavily cleaned, this cleaning has left the tang stamp looking as it appears now. It may be that the "New York", being further out on the blade received the brunt of the cleaning whereas the "Knife Co" being closer to the bolster came through the process little worse for wear (notice the square ends of the letters). If you rely too heavily on tang stamps to determine authenticity, you're going to pass on a lot of authentic knives.

Bernard Levine's advice to "read the knife, not the stamp" is still the best guide.

Miller Bro`s wrote:Good question, I would have thought there would be more responses than this.

Here is a picture of a tang stamp, question: is it real or counterfeit?

I thought there would be more opinions also Dimitri! Thanks for chiming in my friend. Pumped some life into this thread and you present a great example. No clue on anything other than CASE knives as you know (nor an expert on CASE either). I can't read the whole knife though with just that pic, not that that would matter much with my limited CASE only experience, but maybe. That being said, stamp is also off center. Could be so old it was stamped with a dye and hammer, don't know. My guess is stamp hit bottom left first. Don't know my friend.

K7N, I too have seen authentic knives that have had the stamp try to be "enhanced" by an engraving pencil. On the choil, I have identical knives, one 3 of the same year and exact model in a one year limited run of 1000. The choils vary slighty but all knives are genuine. Unless a radical difference, personally doesn't concern me too much. I think that part of the sharpening/hafting process can affect the choil, an assumption only. Certainly not disagreeing with your opinion.

IMBand wrote: The best course of action when looking at a rough stamp is to read the entire knife. Not every original knife will have a pristine stamp and not every fake will have a poor one. I know this is not a real straight forward answer Jerry, but there isn't a single answer to your question. Look close, ask folks here and be careful is about
all a guy can do.

Ahhhh IM! This has been my opinion prior to and extensively stated in this post, hence the title of my post. A perfect CASE stamp on an authentic CASE blade for example, hacked together with other makers parts is still a fake. On the converse side, a less than perfect CASE stamp due to a chipped or worn die, not hit straight on or smeared by some knucklehead with a buffer/grinder, but the rest of the knife reads correctly is not necessarily a fake. Just an example for discussion purpose, depends on the "knife read" as you stated. We agree. Correct, no single answer to the question. I view a knife read as a big series of questions, IE: reading the entire knife.

msteele6 wrote:If you rely too heavily on tang stamps to determine authenticity, you're going to pass on a lot of authentic knives.

Bernard Levine's advice to "read the knife, not the stamp" is still the best guide.

msteele, I qouted a particular portion of your response to emphasize my agreement with you 100%. Well said!!!!! You have sucessfully taken the words from my mouth. I feel the same exact way.

Regards Gents, Jerry

zp4ja wrote:Ahhhh IM! This has been my opinion prior to and extensively stated in this post, hence the title of my post.

I know it has Jerry, just wanted to agree with you in my own words and contribute to the thread.

IM

All good responses so far.

I have intentionally not shown the rest of the knife so the focus is solely on the tang stamp, being this is what this thread is about.

Now would a tang stamp such as the one I posted be allowed out the door of a knife factory, assuming it is authentic??

Miller Bro`s wrote: Now would a tang stamp such as the one I posted be allowed out the door of a knife factory, assuming it is authentic??

Hey Dimitri,

Assuming the knife is authentic, I would say "YES". If the rest of the knife was is expected good working order for it's intended purpose, as a "tool", absolutely out the factory door. Especially in depressed economic times and the whole " most important as a good working tool versus aesthetically perfect" factor. Not to say the cutlers did not take pride in their work and strive for perfection on all of the knife aspects. Just not going to throw away a good sharp, solid blade for that stamp, in my opinion, due to frugality.

What is the era of that knife? Going to speculate and say 1900' to 1930'. Timeframe of such stamp factors in, also, just my opinion.

Could be out in left field with my comments on this knife but if it were a CASE knife posted with a stamp like that, my answer is the same, right or wrong, assuming TESTED era or prior..

Regards, Jerry

I'd say, they would. In fact, other then making sure it's readable, i'd question if quality control in those days would really even include looking at the tang stamp. If they were proud of their product, then they would want the stamp to be identifiable. Beyond that, I can't think that they'd reject a knife for a weak or poorly struck stamp. JMHO

WB

The picture of the stamped tang I posted is in fact an authentic N.Y. Knife Co. knife and is part of a tool kit with other implements.

The only other removable tool that is stamped is the spear point cutting blade and leather punch, see picture, usually all of these other tools are stamped, not the case here. Are the other tools fake? No, they just never got stamped, also note the brushed finish on the blades as was noted earlier by a member it looks like "they were polished with sand paper". In reality they came from the factory this way I have seen several of these kits with this finish, there is another member here that has the same kit with the same poor finish, not what you would expect from N.Y. Knife Co.

This kit is unused and almost as clean as the day it left the factory, so no one has played with it or tried to "clean it up" Take note of the other arm and hammer tang stamp, it is clear and as it should be, also the stamp on the leather punch is also clear.

N.Y Knife Co. made millions of knives during their years in business , and if the average knife has at least 2 blades then millions and millions of blades were made and stamped, if the stamp got worn they kept on using it till it broke or was completely illegible, the tang stamp used on the knife shown is not far from the end of it`s usable life. Knife companies were very frugal and never threw anything away, it usually went in the basement and sat there till they went out of business. The picture below is of dozens of these old tang stamps that I have that were found in the basement of an old knife factory in wooden boxes just quietly rusting away. Some are heavily worn and others look like they have never been used or only used a few times for a certain client then put away.

The lesson in the story and to answer the question posed by this thread is that many, many knives went out the door of knife factories back in the day that were FAR from perfect, lightly stamped, off center, misspelled, and badly worn. Always read the entire knife first, then worry about the tang stamp, with experience you will be able to tell if the tang stamp is fake, has been altered, or is original.

As always MB, great stuff! That tool kit and those tang stamps are pretty darn cool, too!!

WB

Thanks MB,

I agree the "Entire Knife" speaks the truth. The tang stamping does not speak for the Entire knife. Every vintage knife company I know of in which I study, only a few since there are many, have distinct, and clear specifics to their construction.
For myself, the tang stamping on an authentic knife is much like me wearing a New pair of shoes, Or a pair I'm comfortable in but have worn out soles. This happened all the time IMO, and perhaps more often than many of us would like to think. In the day we often forget that these were tools. Collecting pocket knives is only about 45 years Old, we need to remember that.

My personal thoughts come from education: by reading books, posts, personal contacts, but mostly from reading an "Entire Knife"
Not to say I've never been duped, it happens sometimes.... But to pass Judgment on a knive's authenticity based on the stamping alone is mistaken.

Great thread for Sure Bonehead

Great advice Bonehead!

Bernard Levine also says, “Read the knife.”
The tang stamp is only one part of a knife and probably the easiest part of a knife to fake.

The advice Tom Williams, (CAMCO), gives when trying to date Camillus knives is to look at the whole knife;
-look at the style of the knife
-the materials it is made of (handles, liners & bolsters, even the steel in some cases)
-the manufacturing methods used
After you have look at those other things, then you can look at the tang stamp.
IMHO that is excellent advice for any brand of knife.

Camillus used a variety of methods of attaching the handles to knives, depending on the type of handle materials used. When using composition handles like celluloid or other early plastics Camillus first attached the handles with pins, then prongs, (tabs [prongs] of the liner punched out of the liner into the handle material) then posts. Post construction consisted of posts of handle material that protruded through holes in the liner, which were then melted off flush with the inside of the liners.
The method of attaching the handles is much harder to fake than a tang stamp!

If we saw a knife with a 1915 tang stamp, stainless steel blades and Delrin handles, most of us are savvy enough to catch such obvious problems. But if you saw a 1970s tang stamp with a 1990s methods of attaching the handles, how many of us would catch that?

Bonehead made some profound points in this post:

bonehead wrote: I agree the "Entire Knife" speaks the truth. The tang stamping does not speak for the Entire knife. Every vintage knife company I know of in which I study, only a few since there are many, have distinct, and clear specifics to their construction.

My personal thoughts come from education: by reading books, posts, personal contacts, but mostly from reading an "Entire Knife"

1- Read the ENTIRE KNIFE
2- Every company had specific traits to the knives they made. Learn them and learn when those traits changed.
3- You cannot be an expert on every brand.
4- Educate yourself! For this there is no substitute!
5- I would add this point to what he said: look at and handle, (if possible), as many knives as you feasibly can. You can look at knives in the forums, and that is very helpful, but there is no substitute for handling knives! I have found knives that just “feel” wrong.

Once you have a good education on a company, their products and methods, (and their exceptions), & you know the look and feel of their knives; then you will have a much smaller chance of falling victim to a counterfeit knife.

One more example of a well made knife with a poorly executed tang stamp that shipped; I've been following this Colonial Scout Knife on e-bay (out of curiosity, I'm not bidding on it). The tang stamp is clear, the old knife is nearly new, but the poorly centered tang stamp caused most of the letter "P" in PROV to be missed. OH

EXTREMELY Valuable input, views, observations, suggestions, etc Gentlemen!

Dimitri, got any CASE stamp dyes in that pile? Thanks for the extensive detailed input.

Bonehead and Dale, great analogies, advice, detail and views. I apprecite the input.

Good example OH! Lots of pre TESTED CASE knive are like that with a letter on the edge or partially cut off by the tang edge.

Dale, I especially like "5 Knife Reading and Collecting Commandments" that you have articulated. It encapsulates my views on reading a knife as well as all the other member's comments. I am concentrating only on CASE knives as there is much to learn on one brand as you so eloquently stated. The old saying "Jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind here for me although some collectors maybe "masters of all". I still have enough to learn about CASE knives.

There are so many aspects to a knife read, I personally glance at the date stamp to get the era/year to help guage what should be expected in the rest of the knife read and move on to the rest of the read. Is it in the books? Doesn't necessarily mean a thing if it is not. Made in that era? Not necessarily a fake, I have one or two not in the price lists for a particular era that are the real deal. Handle type, could be rehandled, don't make it counterfeit, just rehandled. Length correct? Pin location correct, amount of pins, peened versus spun, nail nicks correct, high pull or regualr, correct long pull nicks, blade configuration made in that year/era, swedge correct, blade material type, been reprofiled?, blade action smooth, tang back same thickness as the backspring, shoulder crisp, should the knife have half stops or not, model stamped on the proper blade, bolster length, bolster stamps, contract knife with some differences (usually thinner stock blade and spring stock) to make a more affordable version of a pattern, shield era correct, shield pinned or glued, etc. Any indication the knife has been apart? I could go on and on as there are numerous other aspects to consider.

Now to the infamous date stamp/makers mark...
I personally think Witcher's book is a good reference for CASE stamps, 80 plus pages, but if I don't see that exact stamp in there I don't say "not in the book, must be counterfeit". How about the rest of the knife, how did it read? What about knives that have worn off or illegible tang stamps? Or a date stamp/makers mark blade broken off at the bolster so there is no reference. The only reference you have in these cases is to read the rest of the knife, no choice, besides walking away from what could be a rare knife with a broken blade or illegible stamp.

All great points everyone. Thanks for all the input. Regards, Jerry

Cutty wrote:Because of counterfeiters I tend to question anything. Unfortunately a drop of speculation breeds a gallon of doubt. Especially when $$ is involved and it's a frequently counterfeited brand/era. I know just enough to be easily scared off

In my mind, better to be easily scared off than easily bilked outta my bucks.