All About Pocket Knives

Folks a real tested 54 trapper in very good or better condition commonly commands thousands of dollars. As you can tell from some of my recent post this may be one of the most conterfeited Case knives around.

http://cgi.ebay.com/20-40-CASE-TESTED-X ... dZViewItem

For those of us who are learning, can you point out what tells you this is a fake?

acourvil, check your private messages
B-R

BR, I would also love to be enlightened on why you believe this knife is a fake.

Thanks,

Stupidhead, Check your PMs.
B-R

I would also like to know why it is a fake, Thanks in advance Blade Runner for the info,
Tom

I know alot try to keep the key points of counterfeiting in PMs as to not to tip off the people that pull this stuff off.

A few basic rules to just readin a knife, which you can listen to PA knives on Podcast right here on AAPK.
Another helpful reference is the Counterfeiting Antique Cutlery by Gerald Witcher, which you can get for free by joining the NKCA (National Knife Collectors Association)

Just remember, by looking at a knife that is supposed to be rare:
So lets use some caution on a collector High Value Knife.
1st: Let me give you a warm and fuzzy about me as a seller, and post an inspirational bible passage, that gives you an immpression that hey, you can trust me, I am going to sell you a good knife here (sales tactic)
2nd: the seller has already had to change the pattern number due to "closer examination" after being pointed out that a 6254 would be bone, not stag. I buy the closer examination story, as the 5's look about the same on the curve, and it could be worn away at the top... gee why is it worn away like that?
3rd: Seller already admits they are not 100% sure now the knife is all original, which takes the blame off them if you want to give them over $200 for a fake knife. Oh and notice all items sold as is.
4th: This seller has been around awhile, I have never bought from them, but it is amazing how they always have some rare or hard to find knives for sale. Kind of strange how that works out. I got dupped by a seller that always had the hard to find knives, and I made the mistake of buying. Got the knife, and guess what... FAKE.
5th: Just by looking at the pictures provided, there are some tell tale signs that this knife is not what it is supposed to be. The seller answered a question about the blades sitting a little high, well hell I think the pitting on those back springs compared to the blades looks quite a bit different "THERE IS A WARNING SIGN" for all to see.
6th: Its been a cleaned knife, there are some that will go for a cleaned buffed up knife, and the seller is smart enough not to list it as mint, and rated it as "good". Remember a cleaned knife does not make it mint. The seller says "i'm no expert" but knows enough how to talk about the knife, and cover his tracks.

There are a few other things wrong that I can spot, which I would not post here, as they could benefit a would be counterfitter in refining their trade. I don't think what I have said is anything suprising.
Just a quick observation of what has been presented to you by the seller is enough to tell you that this knife is not a safe buy. Remember the last thing you should be looking at is what the stamp is on that blade. I have never actually held a Case Tested 5254, but I can pick up a reference book, and compare, and I have handled enough knives to be able to spot certain things that can tell me if I can trust the knife or not.

Over $200 on that knife right now, on a knife that can command thousands if it was the real deal.

It is obvious that there are questions about this knife IMO. Also I think it would be OK to state what they are, because people that change things know knives and what they were orginaly. I will not state what I think because some of the best knife people on this forum think it is a mistake to do so. We do need to let our members know if we see something that is not right. I have learned much from this forum and the members.

Stockman

SFC ADP,

Not only have you given a lesson on reading the knife, but I think even more importantly you have given a fantastic lesson on "reading the seller"

You have done an outstanding job and I am sure that we all can learn from this. The way you looked behind each curtain of this seller is the same way we need to look at knives. I am very pleased with your presentation and hope that others appreciate the fine job you have done here. I feel anothe podcast coming from this. HEY! maybe you should do one!!!!!
I am throughly impressed with this post of yours.

Folks, read his post once, twice and then again, then look at the listing. It becomes clearer as you go.

Then look at the knife, three times and talk to bladerunner. Once you open the book, the pictures are easier to read.

"read the seller too" I LOVE IT

olderdogs1, check your PMs
B-R

I agree with stockman that we should keep our members informed when this junk shows up, and I have done that. There are certain characteristics which these early trappers have that is or is not present on the later ones. I will be glad to talk about these things with my friends here on the forums(in private) just like I was sitting across the table from you. I am also smart enough to know that counterfeiters scan these forums on a regular basis as it is a great place to obtain information. I don't want to be a party to helping any of these shysters refine there work.
Take Care
B-R

Buying and selling on Ebay has a lot to do with trust. That Is why repeat customers are the best thing in the world!! If you approach buying knives like buying used cars, everything becomes much clearer.
As far as quoting scripture, etc. , I believe in the Bible and am a Christian and try my very best to deal with everyone from that perspective, but when it comes to selling a knife, I would rather you be impressed with my honesty about my product than the fact that I can spout quotations from any great source. The only Biblical quote I will add to this forum is this, "Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing."
A knife should be able to stand on its own without a lot of fancy graphics and disclaimers. I get nervous when there are 2 sentences about the knife and 4 paragraphs containing protestations of innocence, disclaimers of liability, and a bunch of warnings that nonpaying customers with be beaten, shot at dawn, and turned in for being a communist baby torturer.
There seems to be no one more concerned about being cheated than a crook.
I am relatively new to knife collecting and trading and new also to buying and selling on Ebay, but it seems that just like everything else in life, establishing business relationships based on trust, honesty, and fairness and dealing within those relationships is probably the wisest course of action.
Sorry about ranting so much but some things seem to set me off a little more than others. Now let me tell you what I think about cheap Chinese products...........................................................!

JMH,
Some good points you mention. It does not take alot of "fluff" to sell a knife. Every knife I have parted with was sold under the "KISS" concept (Keep It Simple Stupid)
Show what you got, if there is anything wrong, point it out. Usually I myself do add items sold "as is" 1. Because I don't have to for the hassle of dealing with buyer's remorse, 2. Thats the same rule at my garage sales, and all other items I may sell othre than knives on E-Bay. But I do not try and hide anything. Now if a seller would contact me about a blatant mistake, yes I would work something out with them, but I have not had that happen.
I do not sell alot of knives anyways on E-Bay as I hate to part with them!!!

The adds in E-Bay I hate are the ones that say they know nothing about knives, but they know terms like "Walk & Talk" know to mention about "Snap" or mentioning it had never been carried or used.
Ok, got it, maybe they read someone else's knife add, but c'mon, reading someone else's add does not mean your going to know what "walk & Talk" means. For the supposed "non-knower" they sure do not alot of knife terms, this is where I get wary of a seller.

One thing about knives I like to collect are commemorative knives, or limited sets. Example: 2 weeks ago I won the Taylor W. VA Coal Miners 3 knife set. Pretty hard to conterfeit something like that, though I am sure it is tried. Or other commemorative knives I have picked up, usually they can be a "safer" bet, and they do go up in value over time.

Here's an idea! WE adopted a cat a few years back, and the pound had injected a small chip under the skin, in case the cat ever ran away and was caught they could scan it, and it would say who the owners were, and our contact info. They should have a "chip" under the scale of a knife, where you can just scan it, and it can tell you when the knife was made, company, etc! Of course the scan machines would maybe have to be in cutlery stores, or department stores, or may cost a couple hundred bucks, but boy for future generations, that would make counterfeiting pretty tough!!!

Anyways, I have spoken enough on the subject for now, hope you all have a great day!

Now I know what I almost broke my tooth on in my "chicken" and brocolli at the local foriegn food emporium!!!!!!

i must admit as a new knife seller myself selling family collections ( have never set foot at a knife show or a store or even seen any other knives besides these) i have picked up on the lingo and am copying it - i thought it made me sound more knowledgeable i've been complimented on my descriptions ( i'm learning as i go) - but now you're saying that makes me sound more suspect?- I can't win then. I call it research--This isn't my auction,( and i do think the bible verse is a huge eye roll), but sometimes you really just don't know ( he probably does know)- - . people are always going to be suspicious imho with the super old knives. I'm afraid to list any of the tested knives I have. -- i'm not saying your post doesn't have good points it does especially with this seller, but don't generalize all sellers that way please-- I assumed I should say I'm not an expert on knives, because clearly I'm guessing most folks wouldn't consider a 30 something year old woman who started selling knives in January an "expert" just my 2 cents thanks

hey becko, calm down, no one is impuning you. the seller being discussed is no newbie to knife selling. while you are researching your inheritance and trying to net as much is possible, he is making his living not being an expert. since you don't buy knives, you are not getting the whole experiance. if anyone on this sight thought you were unscrupulous, you'd probably already know. i have watched your auctions and found them all to be fair representations. this is a forum to speak of suspicious knives and or sellers. no generalizations other than some of the charactorizations some employ. good luck and show us those testeds.

thanks johnnie i didn't mean to sound so defensive, but i was just trying to point out there are exceptions to the rule - thank you for sticking up or me i never thought anyone was insenuating about me. I was just pointing out there can be new sellers who aren't experts and are listing in good faith with as much info they have and have to say they are no expert kwim?-- I realize that's not the case with this seller, but someone could read the guidelines and think that about any seller kwim? thanks for the kind remarks- I'm still too scared to show the tested ones though lol - I have no reason to believe they are not what they are, but i'm just trying to do my homework -- i can't believe how much there is to know about pocket knives

In my experience in knife buying, as long as you have the right stuff in the title, the buyers will come.
If you know you don't know alot about knives, put down the improtant info, make, pattern etc. The collectors will be the ones to check it out, and if you have 2 collectors that know its the real deal, well chances are they know its worth as well, and you'll probably have a bidding war on your hands.
That, or you can have a member here check em out for you, and list them for free on the site, and see if you can pick up a buyer who is willing to pay fair price.
Didn't mean to offend you with some of my points, I knwo there are plenty of honest knife sellers out there on E-Bay, just giving some pointers to say "hey you may want to take a closer look, or ask some questions"
The final decision to buy is on the buyer, if they fail to take the responsibilty to do their homework, then they are going to get alot of counterfeits in their collections.
I know I have been blinded before by a brand name etc, and did not read the knife. Lessons learned!
Thast why I love the AAPK, we can learn so much from each other!

I also wanted to say i really appreciate this site it's a great resource in sooo many ways. I think this forum is one of the best too I've learned a lot--but i'm still no 'expert'

thank you - it is hard to read tone in emails, and i didn't mean to sound so defensive- i was just thinking oh no if someone uses this guideline they will not buy from me lol - Anyway I appreciate your guidelines a lot and wish someone would send me some private messages about the fake trappers-- I need an education- I looked at the tony foster article on knife world as well as the gary moore one here- but i'm still confused about shields-- will the xx frame always have the tall S? wouldnt' there be some transition knives with the usa shield? is that possible? You were kind to reply to this I apologize for my unintentional tone. yes i love AAPK it's a fabulous community and resource -

I'm not an expert on old Case knives, but there's one picture of that knife that warrants me shying away from it.

As far as the seller, I'm wary of sellers who put on that "good old southern boy don't know nothin', but this here knife shore is nice, hoo boy, etc.."

I've spent a lot of time around horse & cattle traders, and that kind of language is a sign you are about to get fleeced.

lol on the cattle traders! That's the same rule of thumb I use, when people tell me how religious they are-- usually a red flag! --well i'm prob revealing secrets here , but i think i read it here- where the stamp on a tested is never on the other blade only on the back of the main blade --

Zip7,
Welcome to AAPK

Dale

Becko, My article on Pre-Dotted Trappers was written for Knife World back in 2005. They were good enough to grant us permission to use it on this site, under the condition that we only use the first part. So you are only seeing about 1/5 of the total article. It covers Case Trappers all the way to the USA era (1965-1969). It took me about two months to finish it working on it as I had time. My suggestion to you is either order a back issue of this article from KW or if you have Tony's article read it until you are well versed on this pattern. When you asked is it possible??? well I guess It's possible I will win the lottery.. but not too likely. The information is out there if you'll just read it. I still get second opinions all the time from people here and elsewhere who are knowledgable before I buy. You should too!! I'll go ahead and answer your question on shields here, but you need to re-read about the tested trapper's markings. The tested trapper is found both with the tested shield and the XX shield. The tested frameXX can also be found with both shields. From my experience the first model and the regular frame should have XX shields.
Gotta Run
Take Care
B-R

hey gary, an hour to go and it's at $281.00. and that's with all the questions on originality. i guess pt barnum was more right than wrong.