All About Pocket Knives

Thanks for the comments on my Jos. Rodgers Sportsmans knife. I think i was very lucky to get the opportunity to acquire it. What cannot be seen is how it feels in-hand which is so natural and comfortable it seems to belong there. This can be explained in part by all edges, ivory and steel being radiused so there is no 90 degree edge to press into your hand. The other aspect to explain this natural feel is likely the size and proportions.
The cutlers of vintage Sheffield era had worked out pattern designs to perfection. I believe they cannot be improved upon, there is no better than 'perfect'.
It is this perfection of design along with the best workmanship of all time and the top quality of handle materials that together make the vintage Sheffield knives the best ever made.
This is my only knife of this caliber and i get a tremendous feeling of satisfaction from owning it.
kj

http://www.fws.gov/international/travel ... rs.html#30

I think you all should read this website in its entirety. I see nothing but trouble for those of you that currently own genuine ivory handled knives, regardless of when the ivory was harvested or when it entered this country.

Although these regulations do cite exceptions, pay attention to and read carefully the little blue highlighted links. they've made it virtually impossible to validate your ivory retrospectively.

That reference to any ivory having been legally acquired prior to February 26, 1976, and not offered for financial gain after February, 26, 2014, appears to me to render illegal for transfer, every knife that's been shown in this thread.

I hope that is not the case.

It's not so much that it's been declared illegal, but that they've made it virtually impossible for you to prove that what you have is legal. And even if it is, you apparently cannot sell it.

Charlie Noyes

It is likely not wise to advertise ivory handled knives to sell. If two collectors do a private deal that involves the sale of ivory knives, i believe this would be safe to do, even if not now legal.
There are numerous knife dealers with ivory handled knives posted for sale. Most now refer to the handles as being "mammoth".
Even though these anti-ivory laws are now in place, enforcement remains to be seen. Likely there are many more important areas which will keep enforcement officers busy. At least, this is my hope.
kj

There always are some knives listed on ebay with 1 or 2 dark or fuzzy pictures and no description other than something like: "old Henckels knife".So, is seller being 'tricky' or just knows nothing about knives or close up picture taking ?
For Henckels folding knives "old" is important as all folding knives marked Henckels since 1960 are contract knives. Henckels collectors want Henckels made knives.
I took such a chance recently, the only one to do so for this auction and i therefore won but also 'scored'.

3" Equal End Pen knife, definitely Henckels made, with lovely ivory handles, in excellent condition. Has "Friodur" so likely date is fairly soon after WW II.

Way to go Joe!

This is a recently made Northwoods "Broadway Jack" which a gentleman in Singapore offered to sell me at a price below what he paid the dealer for it. The recent Northwoods with ivory or mammoth handles can sell for 1.2-2x org price so it was a kind offer which i accepted.
Absolutely nothing wrong with this knife. In fact everything is 'just right' including the top quality ivory.
3.5" made by GEC June 2015, both with and without an EO notch. This one is without. It is a very fine knife.

My "Commander-in-Chief" spotted this ad in our local paper this morning. As you may have guessed, we've been having some discussions recently on the subject of my ivory handled knives. (Sorry for the poor quality of the photo; it is extremely tiny print.) I'll need to double check my source, but as near as I can recall, according to a recent feature article in National Geographic Magazine, for the majority of the elephant ivory on the market today, it's simply not possible to determine whether a specific piece is "pre-ban" (was harvested before 1970) without some kind of documentation or recorded proof of age and/or provenance.

This is getting to be quite a hot topic of debate here in Hawaii due, in large part, to the significant Asian population and cultural influence.

The writer of this ad makes some salient points, although I personally am always automatically somewhat wary and suspicious of ulterior motives whenever someone tells me to disbelieve anyone with a different/opposite viewpoint on an issue, especially when I have already gained contrasting information from a credible source.

To me, the whole "ivory ban to stop elephant poaching" concept is clearly a lot more complicated and not likely to be resolved by simply instituting a wholesale prohibition, regardless of which side you are on.

~Q~

edit: This is the story I was thinking of; however, I must have gotten my impression re methods of determining whether elephant ivory is pre-ban or modern someplace else. (My apologies.)
National Geographic Magazine September 2015
http://archive.nationalgeographic.com/? ... 0#folio=30

Banning something never seems to work. Whatever is banned still abounds. Alcohol and drugs have shown this thousands of times over.
The only effect on those who already have ivory objects is that you cannot advertise them for sale or trade. This affects knife dealers, but individuals can still sell/buy among themselves as this is impossible to police.
kj

According to this month's issue of KnifeWorld, Connecticut is poised to pass a bill that would make the mere possession of elephant ivory a felony with fines and/or imprisonment of up to 10k dollars and five years.

Very few exceptions and even if exempted, one could not sell or trade the ivory.

Read the article.

Charlie Noyes

QTCut5 wrote:I thought this 2008 GEC was mammoth ivory, but then I saw a photo of a David Taber knife with bark-elephant-ivory scales that look very similar (in KNIVES 2015, pg.90), so now I'm not so sure. I am pretty sure that Big Monk would know, however, since I got it from him.

~Q~

Exterior-- Pre-Ban Elephant Ivory

~Q~ does this help?

Owning ivory a felony. Owning marijuana is now legal in many States.
Has the world gone crazy ? Note: i have no objection to pot being legal. But to arrest someone for owning ivory is Insanity.
Jerry, i don't know how much that fellow's rant is helpful. How much 'weight' can you give to his opinions ?
kj

kootenay joe wrote: Jerry, i don't know how much that fellow's rant is helpful. How much 'weight' can you give to his opinions ?
kj

Me? None. It was posted by ~Q~. I just lightened it up and made it easier to read.

Mahalo for the "clarification" (of the photo), Jerry...I didn't want to ask for help, but I knew if anyone could do it, it would be you.

KJ--The "rant" as you call it, does not say anything about "making ownership of ivory a felony." If you read it carefully, the owner of this antiques store in Hilo, who is a Charter member of Legacy Ivory, specifically talks about the sale of ivory (which one can only assume is a significant part of his business) and also mentions the possible restrictions of traveling with personally owned ivory (that is not intended for commercial purpose) without proper documentation. Everything he says seems to be in accord with the US Fish & Wildlife document posted earlier on this thread by Charlie Noyes. After reading the entirety of the proposed ban, it is clear to me that the main emphasis of the law is to control and restrict the commercial trade of raw ivory and products containing ivory (knives, musical instruments, etc.) for financial gain. The problem for those of us who own ivory knives would only be if we tied to sell them or if we transported them across state lines without the required documentation proving their legally acquired status., which, as Charlie correctly pointed out, is difficult, if not impossible, to verify.

My issue or question was more about the truth of his suggestion that pre-ban (antique) ivory can be easily distinguished from more recently harvested/carved ivory. As my partner so astutely wondered, "How would it be possible to determine the difference between a piece of "legal" ivory that was harvested on Feb. 26, 1976 the official "cut-off" date, and a piece of "illegal" ivory that was harvested on Feb. 27, 1976, one day after the cut-off date? (Furthermore, how would one be able to prove that any supposedly legally harvested, pre-ban ivory in their possession was, in fact, also legally purchased prior to Feb 26, 2014 without some kind of receipt or other officially recognized and accepted documentation?) Based on everything I have read and researched, there is absolutely no possible way to make that specific a determination save by matching the DNA of the ivory in question to the DNA of the specific elephant from which it was taken and knowing the exact date of the death of that particular elephant; not an easy or inexpensive process to be sure. Which is why the US Fish & Wildlife Dept. wants to require certificates to establish the age of ivory products--not to prosecute owners of ivory, but in an attempt to curtail the commercial ivory trade. As Charlie stated earlier, obtaining this type of documentation would be extremely difficult. And as you pointed out, banning a substance that people want and have been able to legally obtain for many generations almost never works (and I would add: regardless of changing "ethical" considerations or social mores). As the writer of this ad suggests, a ban would only backfire and actually result in an increase of elephant poaching as the black market would drive up the price of ivory even higher by reducing the supply, but it would do nothing to decrease the demand. Clearly, trying to legislate a total ban on the commercial ivory trade is fraught with loopholes and potentially disastrous consequences. The only possible way to stop the slaughter of elephants for the ivory trade is by changing people's attitudes about the value and desirability of ivory, which I believe was the intent of that National Geographic article I posted earlier (to try to get people to associate buying ivory with supporting terrorism)...But, (IMHO) that simply ain't ever gonna happen, regardless of whatever laws are enacted or draconian fines and punishments are instituted. If it didn't work with harmful substances like drugs and alcohol, why would anyone in their right mind believe it would work with a product of supreme art and beauty such as ivory?.

~Q~

One more thought...

It has occurred to me that every single ivory knife or carving in my current collection was sold under the claim (disclaimer?) that it was "pre-ban," meaning it was supposedly harvested prior to Feb. 26, 1976. Which is suspect, at best. Even if that were true, some of my ivory was sold/purchased well after Feb. 26, 2014, from reputable dealers and ivory merchants currently still in business and still selling ivory products on the open market. So, apparently I am the owner of "illegal contraband" as defined by US Fish & Wildlife Dept. regulations, as much so as if I had a kilo of a Schedule I narcotic (such as heroin) stashed in my closet (strictly for personal consumption, of course, not to sell). Unbelievable.
And I think that was the type of rhetorical connection the writer of the controversial ad that I posted was trying to make regarding the proposed ivory ban in mentioning "blood diamonds" and "gunpoint gold," since that would likely strike a nerve with more people than if he were to equate it with a generally accepted harmful, illegal substance (such as heroin).

~Q~

Here is a very nice ivory Gent's knife that i just came across in a storage folder i have not opened in years.
2 1/2" Sleeveboard Lobster marked on master tang "Eagleton/Knife Co." and "G. F. Schmidt & Peters" stamped onto the elephant ivory handles.
Appears unused and never buffed.
LG4 gives "Eagleton Knife Co." as a Wester & Butz German import line circa 1890.
This knife has no country on it so i had thought it was USA made, but based on above it is from Germany and likely just before country of origin was required for imports, 1891.
regardless, a very nice knife and about 125+ years old.

QTCut5 wrote:One more thought...

It has occurred to me that every single ivory knife or carving in my current collection was sold under the claim (disclaimer?) that it was "pre-ban," meaning it was supposedly harvested prior to Feb. 26, 1976. Which is suspect, at best. Even if that were true, some of my ivory was sold/purchased well after Feb. 26, 2014, from reputable dealers and ivory merchants currently still in business and still selling ivory products on the open market. So, apparently I am the owner of "illegal contraband" as defined by US Fish & Wildlife Dept. regulations, as much so as if I had a kilo of a Schedule I narcotic (such as heroin) stashed in my closet (strictly for personal consumption, of course, not to sell). Unbelievable.
And I think that was the type of rhetorical connection the writer of the controversial ad that I posted was trying to make regarding the proposed ivory ban in mentioning "blood diamonds" and "gunpoint gold," since that would likely strike a nerve with more people than if he were to equate it with a generally accepted harmful, illegal substance (such as heroin).

~Q~

Personal possession listed as OK per this (Fish and Wildlife website).

http://www.fws.gov/international/travel ... swers.html

Personal possession listed as OK per this (Fish and Wildlife website).

http://www.fws.gov/international/travel ... swers.html[/quote]


Nevertheless, all the ivory that was purchased after Feb. 26, 2014, was purchased "illegally" so, technically, it is still contraband, even though it is now my personal property.

Consider this hypothetical situation:

I purchase some ivory Wed., Feb 26, 2014 at 11:30 pm; then, half an hour later, I purchase some more ivory at 12:01 am, Thurs., Feb. 27. The first purchase is "legal" but the second purchase is "illegal" according to the deadline stated in the law.

Or, even more absurd:

I purchase some ivory in California on Feb 26, 2014 at 11:30 pm--which is completely legal because the purchase was made prior to the cutoff deadline. Then I immediately sell it online to a buyer in New York. The transaction is at the same time legal (for me) and illegal (for the buyer) due to the different time zones.

Although the intent of the law may be sincere, a law is only as valid as its ability to be enforced. If the authorities really wanted to, they could confiscate any and all ivory, even personal property that was legally purchased, as long as the owner had no means or method of proving purchase/ownership prior to the cutoff date and/or the date (and perhaps even the specific time) of the acquisition of the ivory with some kind of legally accepted, irrefutable documentation.

~Q~

Quote: "they could confiscate any and all ivory, even personal property that was legally purchased, as long as the owner had no means or method of proving purchase/ownership prior to the cutoff date"
That is what i was saying above about "ownership being a felony".
Most of my ivory knives are vintage, 100+ years old, so getting expert testimony that this ivory is very old and therefore legal would not be difficult. But the custom made knives with ivory by Chamblin, Halfrich, Erickson, Pena, Bradshaw, etc. came with no documentation as to age of ivory. Same for my ivory handled knives by GEC (some branded "Northwoods").
All of these 2 groups of knives could be confiscated because their ownership is now a felony.
kj

This is a 3 3/4 Gerber Silver Knight that was damaged (pic 1). I new it had a second life waiting to come out. I restored it with Interior Mammoth Ivory, that I bought from Charles Turnage, @ fineturnage.com. It was my first restore using Mammoth Ivory, I'm very happy with the results.

kootenay joe wrote: Most of my ivory knives are vintage, 100+ years old, so getting expert testimony that this ivory is very old and therefore legal would not be difficult. kj

While you may be able to prove your ivory is old, i.e., "pre-ban", unless you have dated receipts showing exactly when you purchased it, it could still be considered illegal contraband because you may have purchased your legal ivory after Feb 26, 2014.

The problem here seems to me to be that the burden of proof is on the owners of ivory to prove compliance with the law instead of on the authorities to prove non-compliance...there is no presumption of innocence, only an automatic presumption of guilt that the ivory owner must be able to refute with nearly impossible to substantiate evidence.

As long as you don't try to sell your ivory, or transport it across state lines (or country borders), it's unlikely you will encounter any legal hassles with owning the ivory already in your possession. However, as with the so-called "war on drugs" or "war on terror", history indicates that when the authorities realize they're fighting a losing battle they cannot win, they go after "softer targets" in order to maintain the illusion of success. In the case of ivory, that would be otherwise law-abiding ivory owners instead of the criminal ivory poachers.

~Q~

Gary, very nice hafting with the mammoth. You might get some requests. I have a few good knives with broken handles
kj

kootenay joe wrote:Gary, very nice hafting with the mammoth. You might get some requests. I have a few good knives with broken handles
kj

Thanks

A couple more from the ivory collection:

QT is your fixed blade a Loveless ?
kj