All About Pocket Knives

QuasiHoosier wrote: Competition is what kills the weak and bolsters the strong.

Something to think about:
Approx. 20-25% of the world’s population lives in China,
Only about 4% in USA.
Thus, 3 or 4% of the world's pop. thinks products made in Asia or Mexico are junk; the other 90+% probably do not.
What are the chances that the value of "foreign made collectibles" will out pace US made collectibles?
Are internet market places like Ebay opening up a world market where buyers, sellers and collectors have a different geo-political worldview than what we Americans are accustomed to?

AND, jonet143, thanks for the warm welcome.
Sadly I'm afraid I'm making more enemies than friends.

I do not regard myself as an enemy of anyone, please don't think that. I do have some thoughts and views from some of the rather boring materials that I read, thank goodness it's just some Louis L'Amour right now - easy on the brain.

Competition is what kills the weak and bolsters the strong. That's a very true statement, BUT what happens when a government subsidizes a company and its competition in another country does not get government subsidy. No matter how good the company without governmet backing is, they will fail. The Chinese (or Japanese) companies with government subsidy will always win. So the statement is ONLY true on a level playing field. Susidy tilts the playing field.

I can tell you why that first Rough Rider (first introduced in 2003) did not have China on it. They used to use and maybe they still do, a shallow black electro-etch that some seller would just put it under a buffer and buff it of very quickly. It does not take long, especially if you have a big industrial buffer like mine.

Only about 4% in USA. BUT The United States, with less than 5 % of the global population, uses about a quarter of the world’s fossil fuel resources—burning up nearly 25 % of the coal, 26 % of the oil, and 27 % of the world’s natural gas. We are the world's ultimate consumer AND the only country that attended the Kyoto Accord that refused to sign it. President Bush said it would be to expensive to lessen greenhouse gasses.

We in the United States are and have been isolationists purely because of our physical geographic location. We are only now learning about the rest of the world and how it operates. We are just beginning to understand the rest of the world AS China is now learning about capitalism and how to use it for there own agenda. Make no mistake, China is waging a war of finance on the US and the rest of the world.

China is COMMUNIST. No, they are Quasi or Pseudo Communist. After the fall of the USSR, both China and the USSR changed, with the USSR going the Democratic Capitalist route and China going the Capitalist Communist route. Communism we can simply define as the government owning everything. We can use the term pseudo Communist because the people of China can own their own land and businesses AND that can't happen in a pure Communist regime.

Now we can get to knives. Jim Frost (lives in Tennessee) of Frost cutlery (once Parker-Frost) owns the trademarks many old German cutlery companies and at least some of these trademarks are being made in China. I don't know which ones for sure, but some of the brands he has are fairly expensive. Seems like they keep a tight lip on it. Taylor Brands now has Shrades and many others made in China, Buck has knives made in China. Owlhead knives are made in China, even though the tang stamps are of a German name. Some say they are assembled in China, parts made in Germany. Others say, no they are made in China.

A big problem when dealing with China is counterfeits and piracy of American brand name products and software. Even counterfeit name brand foodstuff and tioletries. The only reason they have not counterfeited knives is a lack of modern equipment, 440A is about the best they can do. Taiwan can handle many top metals now.

Anyway, this got a little long, so I broke it up by changing colors of text. Part of it is political, another is pure observation of what I've taken apart and came away less than inpressed. Many cutlery companies do not have the quality that they once had. This is a direct result of having communist government backed cutlery operations.

Anyway, welcome to AAPK, we don't have to agree on everything, it would be boring if we did. If I had to buy a Chinese knife, I'd buy the Steel Warrior just because it's built a bit more rugged.

Right on!
I'm not feeling picked on, and I'm not trying to rub anyone’s nose in anything -- so I hope no one else feels abused.
OK, OK, I know the knife purse comparison was beggin' for trouble. Can't a fella have a little fun?
I've really been exploring this site lately lots of good stuff here.
You know knife enthusiast come from far and wide.
When I stumble upon a good controversial discussion... we'll it's like saying sic'em to a dog.
Keep it up.
For the record, RRs are not my favorite knives. For starters I like old Primbles more, but that's another discussion.
I'll stir this pot again later, til then...

I had an experience a while back at the Wolverine Knife Show. One large vendor had hundreds of wooden planes, cars etc. All large sized and on their own stand. Things like P-52 Mustangs, corvets. The price was just $60.00 each. Neatest thing I'd seen. I was beginning to buy a plane when I asked the guy if he made them. He just laughed and said, "no, they're all made in Vietnam". That was the end of the sale for me. I just turned and walked away.

I've been looking at Buck, Gerber, Spyderco, Boker, Outdoor Life, Schrade and many more and all the manufactures have knives made in China for sale here. It would be great if all the knives were made in the USA. Guess that won't happen anytime soon tho.

Justold, my man !

In our day, that was a real "Babe Magnet", was it not ? The only thing wrong with 'em, was the radio (maybe made in Japan ?) I finally bought a 45rpm record player, from J.C. Whitney, and put in mine.

As Bob Hope said, "Thanks for the memories"
JR

The issues raised here have really had me wondering and doing a bit of research. Hukk mentioned the Steel Warrior I don't own any, yet. What do any of you make of this review? I think it is the one someone else referred to previously. Just hype or what? Who's Rod Neep?

http://www.rod-neep.co.uk/rod/knives/re ... index.html

I see it is a little dated for starters...

Just my two cents worth,, I was working in the steel mills when imported steel forced me out of a job. Most of our hospitals, hotel, service stations, farms, and oil companies are owning by overseas companies. So most of the time we don't have a choice when we buy something, but when I buy a pickup or a pocket knife, while I still have a choice, they will be made in America.

Is there still a car that is completely made in America?
We just bought a 2003 GMC Envoy. I was looking under the hood & saw that something was made in Mexico! Is there any vehicle that is totally made in the USA anymore?
I have a Ford Expedition, The Envoy & a Buick...........as far as I can tell at least part of them are made somewhere else.

Dale

I guess its just down to the pocket knives now

Something is afoot, have you checked you any Toyotas lately? They tell you right on the window what percentage is US made. Often its a lot. Wouldn't surprise me if a tundra truck (made in Indiana) is more American than some of the GM stuff.
Of course publicly owned companies may be owned by anyone in anyplace who has the moola. It ain't 1950 anymore.

Ah did someone say pocket knife?

QuasiHoosier wrote:... I would have passed and never knew how much fun it is ... give away these little knives... Sadly I'm afraid I'm making more enemies than friends.

I don't think you'll find any enemies here Quasi, only individuals with opinions.

You raise a very interesting point about knife giving.
Recently I casually gave a Rough Rider to a guy whom I know doesn't carry a knife and always has to borrow one.
You would have thought I gave him a thousand dollars.
The point is, you can't go around giving away your Case or your S&M, and he doesn't know the difference, or care.
Now he carries it everywhere, and proudly whips it out before I have a chance to whip out my own knife(usually a Boker).
The down side is that I have to carry an extra knife for lending, but the up side is that I can make another knife carrying convert.
He has been so faithful to his knife that I think it's time to move him up to a Boker Subcom.
The problem is that he has become so attached to his R.R. that he may say, "No thanks, I still have that first knife you gave me."

Edgewise wrote:

QuasiHoosier wrote:... I would have passed and never knew how much fun it is ... give away these little knives... Sadly I'm afraid I'm making more enemies than friends.

I don't think you'll find any enemies here Quasi, only individuals with opinions.

You raise a very interesting point about knife giving.

I agree with Edgewise...........no enemies here. Not at AAPK.
As far as different opinions goes, that is what keeps things interesting. If we all agreed that Case (as an example) were the best knife, then the forum would be much smaller, everyone would agree (which would be boring) & we would all be competing to buy the same knives, which would drive the price way up!

Personally, I like the old Schrade products & could care less about the new Case knives. Just my opinion & what I like.

Giving away knives is a great was to get someone started in collecting. You can't always afford to give away a top of the line knife, nor would someone who is new to knives & knife collecting, be able to appreciate a top of the line knife if we did give them one.

A case in point: I was in the hospital Monday & Tuesday for some testing. While I was there one of my wife's co-workers gave her a knife to give to me. They opened it & neither one of them could figure out how to close it. It was a liner lock. I told my wife over the phone how to close it. It was a Kershaw Baby Boa, MSRP $74.95. Not a cheap knife, but an excellent user. Someone had given it to the guy & he had never even opened it! He didn't like it. But, if someone had given him a Rough Rider he would have known how to use it & probably would have liked it.

I started my 4 older grandsons out by giving them inexpensive knives, some were no doubt made in China. Now they are collecting American made knives and are even buying American made knives to customize. I think they are pretty well hooked on knife collecting.

Dale

The biggest travesty is that a commie chinese knife would use the name 'rough rider' in the first place.

As far as the steel warriors go.... who wants a picture of a samurai on a tradtionally styled pocket knife?

China should stick to manufacturing cheap martial arts equipment.

I got stung recently buying an electricians knife called Rite Edge USA. That is what it said on the box. It had a clip point blade with 2 wire strippers built into the tang of the blade. The second blade was a hawkbill. When I received it the snap was so bad the clip blade wouldn't close unless you pushed it down. After about 6 weeks the seller finally replaced it. The replacement knife has a poorly crinked hawkbill that always hangs up on the liner unless you push it over by hand.
BTW, Rite Edge USA is the brand name, so the seller tells me. It is made in China.

I am with you TM, where do the Chinese get off using deceptive names & American names for cheap junk knives? I guess we should remember that China is the capitol of pirated movies & software. I have seen much better quality Chinese knives, but the "Rite Edge USA is one of the worse pieces of junk I have seen from there. At least the Rough Riders look good. The ones I have seen at least open & close fairly well.

BTW TM, to AAPK!

Dale

TM wrote:The biggest travesty is that a commie chinese knife would use the name 'rough rider' in the first place.

As far as the steel warriors go.... who wants a picture of a samurai on a tradtionally styled pocket knife?

China should stick to manufacturing cheap martial arts equipment.

Welcome to AAPK! The big problem in the big picture is that China is NOW the world's manufacturing epicenter. Another problem is that they are no longer pure commies, they are psuedo-commies in that individuals are alowed to own land, property, and businesses. They have hope and dreams. Whose fault is it? Well, it's my opinion that the Human Rights Organizations, Capitalist Ideology, and the Chinese Governments own evaluation of the fall of the USSR, all played major roles in shaping China into a world's major manufacturing Super-Power in a nutshell.

Yeah, I hate that Samuri in the shield also. Good reason to replace the handles and I don't like the designs. BUT, IMO, the Steel Warrior has surpassed Case based on the knives I've worked with. It's also my opinion that Case has cut corners to challenge the Chinese and the knives of 2007 are not near the quality of even 2000. All is based on my work with these knives, rehandling, evaluating, etc. I wish it weren't so!

Thanks for the welcome orvet and Hukk. This is a great site!

I saw this toon in the paper, thought someone might get a kick out of it.

Hey Fellow Knife Collectors,
It's all about greed! Wal-Mart at one time touted buy American you
no longer hear this. Their only focus is on making all the money they can.
And there will only be good quailty knives as long as there is a demand.
It's true the china made knives are pretty good for the money. But they
pay very little in labor compaired to an American worker. Things only change when folks step up to the plate and demand change. We have the power to do this by refuseing to buy things we don't like. Shopping where we get
good service and just plain speaking out when we are not being treated
like we should as a customer. I believe if knife makers and sellers on e-bay had to state that their knives were made in china the public would buy a
lot less and lots of new collectors would at least know what they were
buying. Lots of famous brands that we as kids heard our grandfathers,
daddys, & uncles talk about are now made in china but they don't advertise
it. It's thru forums like this that you find out.Songsingingman

I personally don't care what brand of knife anyone buys. I got a new Case Stockman out today that cost me $190.00. Mammoth Ivory scales, 1/250 made. You'd think for that kind of money it would be a good, quality knife. After I took some photos of it, I went to close the blades. The main blade stopped midway down, and had to be forced the rest of the way. Snap was nonexistant on this thing! Just another example of the shoddy workmanship coming out of Case. So I will have to box it up and send it back for repair. When I finish selling off all of my newer Cases, that's it for me. The only nice ones I got recently were the Yellow Micarta Stockmans for $39.95.

I am a retiree who likes knives, but I am not a collector. I had a scout knife as a kid in the 50’s. I have always had a knife in my tool box that gets frequent use and one in my desk used for opening packages. Another well-used knife I own is a Tree-Brand folder that I keep in a holster on the belt I use when backpacking. I have a 1986 Case XX Viet Nam Commemorative that was given to me for Father’s Day and has never been used.

My interest in knives was stoked by a friend giving me a knife catalog recently. I spent hours perusing the catalog and my interest was piqued by the various knife patterns, blade types, etc... I purchased a couple of Rough Riders at a local dealer and was impressed by the quality as compared with the price.

It occurred to me that it would be possible to put together a collection of the most popular patterns (trapper, stockman, whittler, etc.) with a spattering of different handle materials in a 30-knife display case at a very inexpensive cost. This struck me as a fun project.

In search of information, I googled “Rough Rider” and found this thread. I read every post in response to the original query and was surprised at the number of entries consisting of passionate (angry?) political opinion. I ignored these entries in search of information useful to me.

Collectors commented that the Rough Rider knives were of less quality than American made name brands such as Case costing 5-20 times as much. Well, duh! Also, the Rough Rider brands would not increase in value as much as the name brands. Of course they won’t, but not every reader of this forum is a collector interested in that.

One answer came close to providing me with information that I wanted. It compared the Rough Rider with the Steel Warrior (i.e., a $10 knife to another $10 knife) in a very general way and concluded that the Steel Warrior was the superior knife.

Now, help me out. Suppose that I have a Rough Rider and a Steel Warrior in front of me: Specifically, what are the features of the Steel Warrior knife that are superior to the Rough Rider? Is it handle-fit, blade material, walk and talk, etc.? I would appreciate that sort of comparison from any of you who feel you can contribute.

The following are opinions from my own observation:

1. Low-end knives in the 50’s such as a 49-cent knife from the SH Kress dime store as compared to the low-end knives of today such as the Rough Rider: There is no comparison; the Rough Riders are far superior.
2. Buying the more expensive name brand knives will not always ensure that the future value of your investment will increase. Many Case knives of the 80’s were not of a high quality and today will not even fetch the original retail value.

I respect the members’ expertise and knowledge in the field of pocket knives and I hope this query isn’t answered with another political slanted message. By the way, I do appreciate quality. I do that by admiring other folks’ collections. My “mad” money seems to find its way to the grandchildren and things other than pocket knives.

hey troy, welcome to the site. politics aside. these two brands are made and owned by the same company. great little knives as knives go. cheaper steel is used in most cases but serviceable. steel warriors are a little better finished than the rough rider( imo), but not by much and lessening all the time. an inexpensive, attractive display could be made from either brand. good luck with your project and post some pics when it's complete.

Hey Johnnie,
Just the type of information I was looking for, thanks. I'm finding that learning is the most enjoyable part of this activity. I don't know where I can check out the Steel Warriors. I'll probably order a couple just to get a look. I thought that the handles on the Rough Riders could have been fitted to the bolsters with a little closer tolerance.

Troy,
Welcome to AAPK.

troyclay wrote:
The following are opinions from my own observation:

1. Low-end knives in the 50’s such as a 49-cent knife from the SH Kress dime store as compared to the low-end knives of today such as the Rough Rider: There is no comparison; the Rough Riders are far superior.
2. Buying the more expensive name brand knives will not always ensure that the future value of your investment will increase. Many Case knives of the 80’s were not of a high quality and today will not even fetch the original retail value.

While I can agree with your with your second statement, I would point out that there is, for the most part, a correlation between quality & price.

However, I don’t think I agree with your first point. There are lots of the inexpensive “Dime Store” knives that are still in circulation. I see them every time I go to a flea market. Most of them are used & some used hard, yet they still take & hold a good edge, especially the carbon steel ones. Many of those old 50¢ knives have better steel in them than the $10 Chinese knives, better than even $30-$40 Chinese knives.

As a person who repairs old knives, I have had many of the old Imperial shell handles apart. While the handles may be worse for the wear, the knife itself still works better & cuts better than many of the Chinese, Pakistani, or cheap from any other country, including current low end American knives.

I believe the reason is that instead of cutting cost by outsourcing (cheaper labor), lowering the quality of the materials, or not finishing the knives as well, the folks at Imperial came up with a cheaper way to build a serviceable 50¢ knife that a guy could pass on to his grandkids. Many models that were 50¢ in the 1930s, were $1.00 by the 1950s. These knives are still out there for anyone to buy, many at their old retail price, 50 to 80 years later. Those knives are, IMHO, better today than most of the new Chinese knives, even the expensive Chinese knives. You will rarely pay more than $2-$5 for one at a flea market, even in good condition, often less than $1.00, but they will out perform the Chinese knives.

This is my opinion based on personal experience. I have dozens (maybe a couple hundred….don’t tell my wife), of these old knives & for my money they are the better buy at any price, than the Chinese knives. They may not be as pretty, but they will cut circles around the Chinese low-end knives.

This is not to say that I don’t see a lot of broken ones or knives with broken blades, but most have been around for 50-80 years. Someone else will have to check the flea markets in 50-70 years & see how many low end Chinese knives from the turn of the 21st century are around then.

Again, welcome to AAK. I hope you stick around and enjoy yourself and learn lots. AAPK is all about learning. I learn something new every time I log on. If I don't learn something, it is usually my fault.

Dale

cool, hey in 2007 I bought a Saturn, a case peanut mammoth ivory ncka museum knife, a schatt & morgan premier, "kiss and tell" novelty knife,
and a new frost whittler... are frost made in china now also? didn't the same guy start both companies??? haven't looked at either of the rr or sw knives. haven't shopped at walmart in years
oh yeah, lots of cd's at yard sales!!!!!!!!!!

edit: got my frost in the mail today, made in china! box signed by Jim Frost. 35th ann. whittler

This question should probably be posted to a more appropriate thread but here goes:

I'm seeing a lot of knives described as having filework done on the blade spine or on the springs. What is the purpose of this? Is it purely decorative. Do all of you consider it an enhancement? I'm reserving my opinion on this until I actually have an example of it in hand for closer examination.