All About Pocket Knives

Excuse me. I beg forgiveness. Since the passing of the late great moderator Johnnie Fain, forum decorum has become somewhat more lax. I forgot myself.

Gunsmoke47 wrote:Excuse me. I beg forgiveness. Since the passing of the late great moderator Johnnie Fain, forum decorum has become somewhat more lax. I forgot myself.

Mr. Gunsmoke I beg to differ and offer the thread linked below as irrefutable evidence of my postion........... By the way this is one of my all time favorite AAPK threads, especially the first four pages...... Threads have been straying off course here for a long time.........Sometimes you just gotta let it go man.


http://allaboutpocketknives.com/knife_f ... =27&t=2326

Phil

Yeah Phil, it was a great thread. My comment was in no way meant to degrade the current mods and admins. You guys are great! I just remember Johnnie politely reminding people (at the drop of a hat) when their subject matter was in the wrong forum. Myself included a time or two! But I digress. I am still continuing to hijack this thread so this is my last word on this thread.

I'll hush now too......

I guess I may be a bit slow, but i'm still trying to figure out if these knives should be considered all out fakes or honest reproductions. Were they commisioned to be built by a reputable source or built by some guy in his garage on saturday afternoon? And where did they come up with all the cool old hdwr. store stamps? Seems to me for the quality of work and the initial investment it would have taken to start up such a venture, someone was either an eccentric genuis or a complete idiot.

whitebuffalo58 wrote:I guess I may be a bit slow, but i'm still trying to figure out if these knives should be considered all out fakes or honest reproductions. Were they commisioned to be built by a reputable source or built by some guy in his garage on saturday afternoon? And where did they come up with all the cool old hdwr. store stamps? Seems to me for the quality of work and the initial investment it would have taken to start up such a venture, someone was either an eccentric genuis or a complete idiot.

FAKES since they were sold as originals not reproductions. Reproductions like the Queen Schatt & Morgan series and Case Family Brands series will have the current year of manufacture stamped on the knife.

But as I understand it, they were sold "recently" as originals. I can understand that as being deceitful. Although if I understand the related posts, whether it was intentional or not is still debatable. On the other hand, if they were originally marketed (who knows when?) as say a novelty item. Then wouldn't that be a whole different story. These knives could have even been originally made by a highly respected custom maker, who may have built them for his own personal pleasure. Never intending that they be sold to the general public. To me, without knowing the true origins of these knives and how they were intended to be marketed, I'm not so sure i'd be so quick to write 'em off as bandits and bootlegs. They could in fact, be considered original works of art.
Here's what gets me. Why, if you have the kind of talent and the investment capital that it took to build this nice of a knife, would you use a multitude of obscure tang stamps that nobody's ever heard of? Why not reproduce or "fake" a better known company? I mean, how many high quality fake Case knives could you flood the market with before you had to bail. If you started with a stockpile of a thousand, I guarantee you could unload all of 'em before it caught up with you. By that time you could be in the Bahamas sippin' margy's.
It just seems there are atleast as many pro-scenarios as there are cons. Have all avenues as to where they very first originated from been exhausted? Reading through this thread it seems everyone is so willing to write them off as deceptive FAKES. But, isn't there still a chance there's more to the story? Just sayin'.

I read the forum occasionally to catch up,but hardly participate at all.(Due to a lack of anything knowledgeable or interesting to say). I love to look at all the knives and enjoy the wealth of info and civility on here.

I have a question about the look of the polish on this knife's blades.I don't remember seeing the striated looking blades on older knives(I don't know the proper term).I don't know if I am making this clear or being just ignorant,but I'll wait for responses.

By the way,I also really enjoyed this thread.

wlf, there are a multitude of highly knowlegable people here, i'm not one of 'em. I tend to ask more then I tell. I think you're probably right. Most older knife co.'s did high polish their blades. In today's terms, I think Case refers to the knifes finish in this post as "satin" finished. Whether there was a term for it back in the day, i'm not sure.

Whether or not that is definitive proof or? It is hard to buy without putting the knife in your hand before purchase.

Thanks Buffalo..

whitebuffalo58, here are some links to help you get more of the story, but first I will summarize it for you. Around 2007 a seller on eBay called obadyah began selling rare jack patterns (congress, coffin, eureka, etc.) with rare stamps (Herrick, Wallkill, Thomas Mfg, Paxton and Gallagher, etc.). They were all bone-handled and the only difference was the stamps and the shields. He was selling them falsely as vintage knives, but when questioned he claimed that they were assembled from parts found in an old factory, but we can't know if this is true or not (read the links to see some of the rumors about this). If it is true we don't know if he assembled them or if some company assembled them. And personally, if he is telling the truth I seriously doubt that the blades had stamps on them before being assembled. Anyways, ever since then people he swindled into believing they were buying the real deal will put one of these up for auction once in a while believing they have a good piece.

To be considered a reproduction the company or person making the repro must own the license of the stamp being used. If they do not, then it is a fake. And in my mind a reproduction can also be considered a fake if the seller is trying to pass the knife off as vintage without fully disclosing the knife's origins, even if it is made from original parts. This is because it was not the actual company that put it together. Jim Parker was notorious for putting together knives like this, but he did tell you that they weren't vintage. He called them "new-old stock."

And to answer your question as to why someone would use an obscure stamp and not a well-known one is very simple. Rare stamps can demand a lot of money. This is especially true if a collector collects only certain patterns like say, congress jacks. Also, rare patterns can demand a lot of money. Mix a rare stamp with a rare pattern and you're talking big money. Furthermore, people are less wary of rare stamps because they falsely believe forgers only make fakes of popularly collected knives. Plus, a collector is usually going to be less familiar with a rare maker, which makes it harder for the collector to spot it as a fake. I mean, with some companies like Remington or Case some collectors can spot a fake just by the jigging of the bone. Simply put, it is easier to pass off a fake as authentic if you use a rare stamp rather than one that many collectors are familiar with.

http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... ck#p159012
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... gress+jack
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... gress+jack
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/kni ... gress+jack

Fair enough Dave, i'm seein' much more of the picture then I was just from this thread. I appreciate the help in getting a grasp on it. It would appear then, that the operation that brought these into the market was no dude workin' out of his garage on weekends. But rather a large, well organized outfit bent on the total deception of the knife buying public. That is...well I don't know what that is. Mind boggling? By the basic definition, that's organized crime! I guess it's hard for me to imagine the number of knives that had to slip in under the radar before this venture would have seen enough return to go to that much trouble.
You know whoever took this on had to have a fair amount of money invested in it. I can't really buy into the whole NOS parts theory. Too many manufactuers to be able to put that many knives together. Each one would have had their own blade to backspring setups. The kicks would have all been different. Hole positions, blade thicknesses, blade lengths, the list of modifications would be endless.
So that leaves starting pretty much from scratch. Wow! The investment in all those different custom made stamps alone would have been enough to make a banker weep. Not to mention the steel, the bone, nickel silver, brass, pin stock, machinery, a facility, utilities........
Ahhh...now that I think about it, there is one other scenario that comes to mind. The availability of all the parts, already made from the same manufaturer, bought in bulk, without tang stamps. Then the only other investment would be the custom stamps for each of the different hrdwr. co.'s. And of course the neccesary facilities, etc...to pull it off.
That would beckon the question, what company that went out of buisiness produced all these obscure patterns? Time frame...say 80's-90's? Didn't Boker move all their operations back to Germany along about that time. They made a congress jack but not sure about the other patterns. Anything look Bokerish about the op's knife?
Anyway, I find this whole thing fascinating! On the one hand it bites that this could be part of the knife collecting world, but on the other hand, you almost have to admire the shear inginuity of it all. I'd really like to have seen what their bottom line was on this brainstorm.

I think we all have to keep in mind that no one except the person who made the knives has the whole picture. There is conjecture and second-hand evidence that supports a small group of guys built these as knockoffs. Had it been a company producing licensed reproductions one would think someone would've heard some type of product announcement. So assuming the evidence is correct and they aren't reproductions, which is more likely: one guy had a bunch of rare mint knives that were all the same hard to find patterns from different obscure companies that look absolutely identical except for different shields and tang stamps, not to mention duplicates of some of the knives, or some guys were pulling one over and selling fakes to unsuspecting collectors? Unfortunately, I'm going to have to go with the latter. Occam's razor and all that.

I hope this thread doesn't die.

Thank you all for contributing and adding to this thread.
I'm glad this exposure of fake knives is brought to light. It's important for others to read.
The earlier threads about these knives were important at that time, but folks tend to forget (except those of us who were burned) and new members come along who will benifit from the exposure.
Speaking of exposure, I also had to expose the knife for what it apparently is. A fake.
This does not reduce my desire for the knife. It is really a great knife and I respect it and will carry it and use it with care. No one will be duped by this knife again.
There is a lot of good correspondence here. Certainly part of what a good knife forum is all about. I'm glad to be a part of it. Again, thanks to everyone.
I hope the discussion continues.

What a clever idea, Joe.

whitebuffalo58 wrote:wlf, there are a multitude of highly knowlegable people here, i'm not one of 'em. I tend to ask more then I tell. I think you're probably right. Most older knife co.'s did high polish their blades. In today's terms, I think Case refers to the knifes finish in this post as "satin" finished. Whether there was a term for it back in the day, i'm not sure.

It was common in the old days to polish one side of the blade and leave the other side "glazed". The side toward the shield was usually the one with the high shine.

Ofttimes knives of "lesser" quality, that is a knife that say sold for fifteen cents as opposed to one that sold for a quarter, might have the glazed finish on both sides of the blade. When I refer to lesser quality, I mean the knife might have ebony scales as opposed to bone, pearl, or stag. All of the other factors we look for such as fit and finish would still be the same. More of a working man's knife, or one that because it was a few cents cheaper might be bought.

FRJ wrote:I asked, a while back, about congress jacks because I bought one on Ebay and was uncertain of the results of my itchy trigger finger.
Well, it showed up.
Can anyone help me with the maker of this knife and when Herrick Hardware was selling these things.
Impulsive purchase or not, this is about the finest knife I own. Absolutly bulldog solid and bulldog snappy.
And a congress jack to boot. I never knew of such a thing. I am really thrilled with this thing. 3 3/4"
If just fingerprints means it isn't mint, then it's not mint, but that's all that would be against this knife.
I looked up Herrick Hardware, but found nothing on the knife.
I will call University of North Texas to see if they can offer anything.
I would appreciate any help you could offer. Thanks a lot.

Just found this in one of the other threads referenced above from back in Jan of '09.

rigwelder wrote:This seller sold a bunch of real nice coffin jacks about six months ago, he said they where made from spare parts, i bought a Old Herrick Hardware congress jack that was dead mint, sure its pretty much mint, but probably only a few years old! I WOULDNT TRUST NOTHING FROM THIS SELLER.

I think he was referring to OBADYA as the seller.

whitebuffalo58 wrote: The investment in all those different custom made stamps alone would have been enough to make a banker weep. Not to mention the steel, the bone, nickel silver, brass, pin stock, machinery, a facility, utilities........

The tang stamps I have seen on these knives have all been reproductions, not originals. I recall studying the Miller Bro`s tang stamped knives this seller was selling, all those were stamped using a modern re-made tang stamp.

You would be surprised how inexpensive a tang stamp can be made, especially if you are a knife factory and have them made all the time, or have the machinery to make them yourself. The sale of just one of these knives would cover that cost with money to spare.

I believe these knives were made in most likely Germany by a legitimate knife factory for somebody over here that wanted to pass them off as originals. The knives are too well made and consistent to have been put together by someone it their spare time.

Also, I have a reproduction Winchester knife that was made in Germany and it has the same jigged bone handles with that reddish dye that you tend to see on these knives.

The original Colonel Coons were parts knives. I have to wonder, if these knives had of been properly represented and marketed, what they'd be worth to collectors today? It'd be sad to learn that the original makers intent was pure, but it got flushed down the toilet by some ne'er-do-well seller on Ebay. IMHO, knives of this quality deserve better. I know, for the right price, i'd love to have one of each.

Thank you Jerry, just trying to keep the flies out of the kitchen.

Thank you Willie and Dimitri, for adding more insight and information to this thread.
All very interesting reading.

A "right price" of $240.00 would most likely persuade me to part with my beautiful Jonathan W. Price, Pine Knot version.

Just kidding.

Charlie Noyes

Charlie,

Could I see a close up picture of your Pine Knot tang stamp ?

I would like to compare it to the one I have around here someplace, going to look for it now.

I want to see what the difference is in the original versus the modern one

Uhhh...thanks Charlie, but my wife just said she'd rather I didn't anyway.

dcgm4,

Here is a picture of my Paxton & Gallagher congress jack. I decided to throw in a couple of other knives. The Eureka jack is marked Shapleigh and I have seen others exactly like it.
The top knife is marked Utica in a straight line. I'm not quite sure if it is a reproduction (fake) although I think that it is. If anyone knows for sure I would appreciate them telling me.

Thanks

Mark Steele

P.S. this is the first picture I've uploaded that I actually took myself so please forgive the quality (my Blackberry). If you click on the picture it enlarges fairly nicely.

MS