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Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:36 pm
by TPK
ea42 wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:28 pm Tom the 2 blade 2.75" knife was manufactured from 1962 to 1972 which would make it a Schrade Walden.

Eric
Oh thanks Eric! I love dates. Especially 1972 ::super_happy::

So it's a Schrade Walden NY USA #708 Small Pen Pocket Knife. Manufactured from 1962-1972 with a Federal shield, Carbon blade & Derlin handles & is 2-3/4" in a closed position.

I'll have to write this information down so I don't forget it. ::tu:: :D

Thanks for all the help friends! I do appreciate it very much! ::handshake:: ::nod::

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:17 am
by cudgee
I have ventured into new territory and expense, the 1/2 whittler. Have 4 on the way, just been informed by postal update, 3 in the country, 1 still over the oceans somewhere. 1 has gone through a processing facility here, so hopefully not far from being in my pocket. But everything is taking so much time with all the covid backlog.

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:47 am
by cody6268
TPK wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:37 pm The other 3 are for the kitchen. A small "Solingen" with wooden handle & a set of 2 "Pink Ladies" because it's "Ladies Night"! :mrgreen: They have different edges & are also made by Richartz. :D
Thanks for looking friends! ::handshake::
Nice parer! I'm looking at some Herder and Gedore carbon steel kitchen cutlery that I plan to add.

I have some "floral knives" by Clauss I bought as I wanted to try something that was a bit more solid than a utility knife, but cheap enough to beat up. They have very similar looking blades (but very thin and flexible) to those "apple" knives, but much, much worse handles. Those you show look far better in that regard. I'm gonna have to go looking for that myself. My grandmother loves to use them for just about everything--from garden work, to cooking, to use as steak knives.

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:49 am
by cody6268
jerryd6818 wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:06 pm I noticed this morning that I'm missing some years between 1990 & 2020 in my Mini-T accumulation, sooooooooo..........

I started filling the gaps with a 1996 Chestnut Mini-T. Seller's picture of course. Now I just have to wait. ::pace::

Case 1996 Mini-Trapper 6207 SS Chestnut - Labeled.jpg


I also ordered a Rough Ryder "Blue Mule" Mini-Trapper.

RR Blue Mule Mini-Trapper (10-2-20) Stock Pic Labeled.jpg
I have a ton of 1996 Bucks (my birth year), but no Case yet.

I love the G-10 on that RR!

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:50 am
by cody6268
TPK wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:36 pm I bought 4 knives from the same seller today for 17.50 shipped. ::tu::
First one is this Richartz with what appears to have wooden handles. ::hmm::
Thanks for looking friends! ::handshake:: :D
I think Richartz made that for a lot of people. I've seen tons of tang stamps with pretty much that same design.

But, they're just as solid as the Swiss knives. I have a sort of generic one (tang stamp "SOLINGEN" over "GERMANY") with an ad on it (woodgrain veneer over plastic that peeled right off), and other than the cheap veneer, it's a solid knife. Stronger corkscrew than the SAK too.

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:35 am
by rustyoldknife
TPK wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:53 pm I'm pretty stoked about the Schrade Walden I just found on the bay. We don't have many older Schrades over here in Germany. I know nothing about it though so if anyone wants to tell me anything about it, I'd appreciate it. ::nod::

Can anyone tell me:

Is this a boy scouts of america shield?
What is the patern # ?
Bone or Derlin scales?
34,50 shipped / good or bad ? ::shrug::

Thanks for your help & thanks for looking friends! ::handshake::
Tom

Here are Scout examples of the different tang stamps

Schrade Walden is stamped 708 on the back side of the blade
Schrade USA 708
Camillus has no model number

From the page Skip posted there are different versions of the Schrade over several years
I have these 2 but I have never found one marked Stainless

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:05 am
by TPK
cody6268 wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:49 am I have a ton of 1996 Bucks (my birth year), but no Case yet.
::doh:: ::facepalm:: & ::dang:: You need to get that squared away soldier! ::nod:: :lol:

So how do you date a Buck knife anyways?

The only knife I have that I can date exactly to 1972 is my Bearhead Jack that I got from Ray. ::tu::

Only other "72" knives ::hmm:: I have are that Schrade Walden NY Scout knife I Just bought that was produced sometime between 62 & 72 & a beautiful Camillus "72" patern that I bought from Jeff's store "Second Life Knives".

And thanks for the comments my friend! ::handshake:: ::super_happy::

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:38 am
by TPK
rustyoldknife wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:35 am
TPK wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:53 pm I'm pretty stoked about the Schrade Walden I just found on the bay. We don't have many older Schrades over here in Germany. I know nothing about it though so if anyone wants to tell me anything about it, I'd appreciate it. ::nod::

Can anyone tell me:

Is this a boy scouts of america shield?
What is the patern # ?
Bone or Derlin scales?
34,50 shipped / good or bad ? ::shrug::

Thanks for your help & thanks for looking friends! ::handshake::
Tom

Here are Scout examples of the different tang stamps

Schrade Walden is stamped 708 on the back side of the blade
Schrade USA 708
Camillus has no model number

From the page Skip posted there are different versions of the Schrade over several years
I have these 2 but I have never found one marked Stainless
Wow David! :shock: Those are absolutely beautiful knives! ::handshake:: I like em all, but then again, who wouldn't like those? Like to find a Camillus Scout like you have to go along with my Schrade. That's one to add to my wish list. ::nod:: ::tu::

Like I said before, it's hard to find Schrade knives or any other "older" american made knives on German eBay. Once in a while ya find a 1990's - 2020 Case or a military issue Camillus. Once in a great while ya find a Schrade or a Buck but then they usually get bid up further than I am willing to go. I have never found any Queen Cutlery knives. Except for a S&M but they are really over my price class. And I have see a few GEC's but again, over my budget of course. It's a hard life. ::doh:: :lol: Good thing I don't have the great selection of knives to choose from like in the states or I'd be bankrupt & divorced by now! LOL! :lol:

Anyways, beautiful knives! I enjoyed seeing those! ::nod:: Thanks for posting them! ::handshake:: :D
Have a great Sunday & stay safe Buddy! ::tu:: :D

Tom

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:48 am
by cudgee
TPK wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:38 am
rustyoldknife wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:35 am
TPK wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:53 pm I'm pretty stoked about the Schrade Walden I just found on the bay. We don't have many older Schrades over here in Germany. I know nothing about it though so if anyone wants to tell me anything about it, I'd appreciate it. ::nod::

Can anyone tell me:

Is this a boy scouts of america shield?
What is the patern # ?
Bone or Derlin scales?
34,50 shipped / good or bad ? ::shrug::

Thanks for your help & thanks for looking friends! ::handshake::
Tom

Here are Scout examples of the different tang stamps

Schrade Walden is stamped 708 on the back side of the blade
Schrade USA 708
Camillus has no model number

From the page Skip posted there are different versions of the Schrade over several years
I have these 2 but I have never found one marked Stainless
Wow David! :shock: Those are absolutely beautiful knives! ::handshake:: I like em all, but then again, who wouldn't like those? Like to find a Camillus Scout like you have to go along with my Schrade. That's one to add to my wish list. ::nod:: ::tu::

Like I said before, it's hard to find Schrade knives or any other "older" american made knives on German eBay. Once in a while ya find a 1990's - 2020 Case or a military issue Camillus. Once in a great while ya find a Schrade or a Buck but then they usually get bid up further than I am willing to go. I have never found any Queen Cutlery knives. Except for a S&M but they are really over my price class. And I have see a few GEC's but again, over my budget of course. It's a hard life. ::doh:: :lol: Good thing I don't have the great selection of knives to choose from like in the states or I'd be bankrupt & divorced by now! LOL! :lol:

Anyways, beautiful knives! I enjoyed seeing those! ::nod:: Thanks for posting them! ::handshake:: :D
Have a great Sunday & stay safe Buddy! ::tu:: :D

Tom
Mate can you not buy from America because of import rules, or are they just too expensive? :)

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:24 am
by TPK
cudgee wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:48 am
TPK wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:38 am
rustyoldknife wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:35 am

Tom

Here are Scout examples of the different tang stamps

Schrade Walden is stamped 708 on the back side of the blade
Schrade USA 708
Camillus has no model number

From the page Skip posted there are different versions of the Schrade over several years
I have these 2 but I have never found one marked Stainless
Wow David! :shock: Those are absolutely beautiful knives! ::handshake:: I like em all, but then again, who wouldn't like those? Like to find a Camillus Scout like you have to go along with my Schrade. That's one to add to my wish list. ::nod:: ::tu::

Like I said before, it's hard to find Schrade knives or any other "older" american made knives on German eBay. Once in a while ya find a 1990's - 2020 Case or a military issue Camillus. Once in a great while ya find a Schrade or a Buck but then they usually get bid up further than I am willing to go. I have never found any Queen Cutlery knives. Except for a S&M but they are really over my price class. And I have see a few GEC's but again, over my budget of course. It's a hard life. ::doh:: :lol: Good thing I don't have the great selection of knives to choose from like in the states or I'd be bankrupt & divorced by now! LOL! :lol:

Anyways, beautiful knives! I enjoyed seeing those! ::nod:: Thanks for posting them! ::handshake:: :D
Have a great Sunday & stay safe Buddy! ::tu:: :D

Tom
Mate can you not buy from America because of import rules, or are they just too expensive? :)
I could buy in the US but then I have to pay shipping. Usually around $15 and then if it's anything expensive like say a new Case or a really old Case, then I'd have to pay some "import taxes". For example, someone sent me a package a while back and wrote Value $150 on the postage form. I think that cost me ::hmm:: €23 or about $25+ dollars "import taxes". ::doh:: Might have even been a little more than that. I tried to forget about it. :lol:

Anyways, sales taxes here are 19%. And anything that you "import" that's over like $25, they charge you the 19% sales taxes on it. So, if I buy lets say for example, a $20 knife & then have to pay $15 on top of that for shipping, I don't have to pay the "import taxes" but I'm still "overpaying" to get a "cheap" knife.

And if I buy a let's say for example $100 knife. I end up pay like $100 + $15 shipping + $19 taxes. So in the end I'm paying $135 for a $100 knife. Just doesn't make much sense unless it's your "Holy Grail" knife or something like that.

What does make sense is packages with an expensive knife or several cheaper knives in it that are "labeled" or "declared" to be under $25 in value. Hope you could follow me on this. :mrgreen:

That's why I usually have knives sent to my mom's house and then tell her "Oh just put $15 or $19 on the package. That'll be fine mom." :lol: Only thing with that is, it could take her a few months to send it to me & that's torture to have to wait so long. :lol: LOL!

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:35 am
by TPK
::ds:: This must be my lucky Schrade weekend!!! ::ds::
Just found another older Schrade knife. ::groove:: An 808!!! ::groove::

Made an offer & it was accepted. €15 shipped. Obviously, it needs some cleaning. ::nod:: Hope it has some snap left in it. :D Again, I know very litte about it. Like it's age. But I'm still very stoked about it! ::tu:: Two older Schrades in one weekend! Thank You "Mr. Knife-God"! ::pray:: ::ds::

I assume it has Carbon blades & Derlin handles (Can anyone tell if it's derlin or bone?) like the Scout knife does. If it's bone I'll go nuts!!! ::tease:: If anyone knows anything else about it (like the approximate age), I'd appreciate the info! ::nod::

Thanks for looking friends! ::handshake::

Tom

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:55 am
by cudgee
TPK wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:24 am
cudgee wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:48 am
TPK wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:38 am

Wow David! :shock: Those are absolutely beautiful knives! ::handshake:: I like em all, but then again, who wouldn't like those? Like to find a Camillus Scout like you have to go along with my Schrade. That's one to add to my wish list. ::nod:: ::tu::

Like I said before, it's hard to find Schrade knives or any other "older" american made knives on German eBay. Once in a while ya find a 1990's - 2020 Case or a military issue Camillus. Once in a great while ya find a Schrade or a Buck but then they usually get bid up further than I am willing to go. I have never found any Queen Cutlery knives. Except for a S&M but they are really over my price class. And I have see a few GEC's but again, over my budget of course. It's a hard life. ::doh:: :lol: Good thing I don't have the great selection of knives to choose from like in the states or I'd be bankrupt & divorced by now! LOL! :lol:

Anyways, beautiful knives! I enjoyed seeing those! ::nod:: Thanks for posting them! ::handshake:: :D
Have a great Sunday & stay safe Buddy! ::tu:: :D

Tom
Mate can you not buy from America because of import rules, or are they just too expensive? :)
I could buy in the US but then I have to pay shipping. Usually around $15 and then if it's anything expensive like say a new Case or a really old Case, then I'd have to pay some "import taxes". For example, someone sent me a package a while back and wrote Value $150 on the postage form. I think that cost me ::hmm:: €23 or about $25+ dollars "import taxes". ::doh:: Might have even been a little more than that. I tried to forget about it. :lol:

Anyways, sales taxes here are 19%. And anything that you "import" that's over like $25, they charge you the 19% sales taxes on it. So, if I buy lets say for example, a $20 knife & then have to pay $15 on top of that for shipping, I don't have to pay the "import taxes" but I'm still "overpaying" to get a "cheap" knife.

And if I buy a let's say for example $100 knife. I end up pay like $100 + $15 shipping + $19 taxes. So in the end I'm paying $135 for a $100 knife. Just doesn't make much sense unless it's your "Holy Grail" knife or something like that.

What does make sense is packages with an expensive knife or several cheaper knives in it that are "labeled" or "declared" to be under $25 in value. Hope you could follow me on this. :mrgreen:

That's why I usually have knives sent to my mom's house and then tell her "Oh just put $15 or $19 on the package. That'll be fine mom." :lol: Only thing with that is, it could take her a few months to send it to me & that's torture to have to wait so long. :lol: LOL!
I know where you're coming from brother. A $100US knife without taxes just postage will cost me about $180 Aussie, bloody expensive hobby. ::mdm::

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:07 am
by TPK
cudgee wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:55 am
TPK wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:24 am
cudgee wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:48 am
Mate can you not buy from America because of import rules, or are they just too expensive? :)
I could buy in the US but then I have to pay shipping. Usually around $15 and then if it's anything expensive like say a new Case or a really old Case, then I'd have to pay some "import taxes". For example, someone sent me a package a while back and wrote Value $150 on the postage form. I think that cost me ::hmm:: €23 or about $25+ dollars "import taxes". ::doh:: Might have even been a little more than that. I tried to forget about it. :lol:

Anyways, sales taxes here are 19%. And anything that you "import" that's over like $25, they charge you the 19% sales taxes on it. So, if I buy lets say for example, a $20 knife & then have to pay $15 on top of that for shipping, I don't have to pay the "import taxes" but I'm still "overpaying" to get a "cheap" knife.

And if I buy a let's say for example $100 knife. I end up pay like $100 + $15 shipping + $19 taxes. So in the end I'm paying $135 for a $100 knife. Just doesn't make much sense unless it's your "Holy Grail" knife or something like that.

What does make sense is packages with an expensive knife or several cheaper knives in it that are "labeled" or "declared" to be under $25 in value. Hope you could follow me on this. :mrgreen:

That's why I usually have knives sent to my mom's house and then tell her "Oh just put $15 or $19 on the package. That'll be fine mom." :lol: Only thing with that is, it could take her a few months to send it to me & that's torture to have to wait so long. :lol: LOL!
I know where you're coming from brother. A $100US knife without taxes just postage will cost me about $180 Aussie, bloody expensive hobby. ::mdm::
Amen! ::nod::

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:26 am
by jerryd6818
Maybe you guys should give up knives and collect tea cozys.

I say uh, I say uh, that's a joke son (in my best Foghorn Leghorn imitation) We have it pretty good here in the States in spite of our politicians and that's not a joke.

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:13 pm
by TPK
Maybe. ::shrug:: Or tea spoons. ::hmm:: You could sharpen them. ::tu:: :lol:

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:22 pm
by TPK
Skip's posted information says the the Schrade Cutlery Co. was renamed Schrade Walden in 1946. ::hmm::
So I guess that last Schrade I posted is from or made before 1946. :shock: Wow! That could be my oldest knife if that's correct what I'm thinking. ::hmm::

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:49 pm
by cody6268
I wanted a Buck 305 Lancer as a light duty knife for around the house sweatpants carry. Since Buck no longer makes them anymore (they keep saying it's just temporary to retool the line--but it's been what, 2-3 years?); prices have gotten stupid. What I found was too expensive, broken, or broken and expensive. I found this lot for $35 shipped, offered the seller $30 shipped, and with eBay bucks for the period, cost me just under $25 shipped. I've really gotten picky on used lots these days. No cheapos, no junkers. And, I don't think the Camillus in this lot is what I'd call a junker. It's an oddity too.

s-l1600B305C303.jpg
The 305 is used but not abused. It's fairly early as an in-house made 305, as it is a 1987 knife.And, this should be 425M steel, which is supposedly pretty good.
s-l1600B305A.jpg
s-l1600B305B.jpg
Also included is a really odd Camillus Remington. It appears to be a very similar pattern to the old 303 Camillus made for Buck, but there's no tang stamp other than "stainless". Just an etched tang mark of "Remington USA" It's got regular construction, so there goes my theory of "parts purchased at the Schrade bankruptcy." I believe it's fairly late production in the Camillus timeline.
s-l1600C303.jpg
s-l1600C303B.jpg

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:33 pm
by dlr110
I have several knives I'm waiting on the Ponder Post Rider to delivery.
I bought 5 of the 9 Rough Ryder High Plains series from SMKW.
Also bought from our own here at AAPK a Rough Ryder Yellow Stockman RR 602
and a BUCK 220 Folding Fillet 6.5" Knife.
rr2045.jpg
1601678374_289_1-100x100.jpg
1601678374_289_1-100x100.jpg (6.1 KiB) Viewed 2983 times
1601518869_2383_1.jpg

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:46 pm
by cody6268
Mikov NUZ 121-OK-2F# "Zero". I picked it up because I have a thing for shell-handle knives, and this is about one of the last "old school" designs still in production. And, it's made in the Czech Republic, not the Orient. It's about 4" long with a locking 3" blade so it's a decently sized folder too. It only weighs a little over two ounces. There are one-blade and two-blade variants, and it was less than a dollar more, so I went with the one thad added the can opener. It cost $10 shipped from a seller here in the States.


The steel is 12071 carbon steel; which apparently is not produced or sold outside the Czech Republic, and has no equivalents. From what I'm seeing it's close to the European C70, and our 1065 and 1075. It seems pretty softish at 53-55 Rockwell (seller here in the States says 55-58, which is wrong---the info I got comes from mikov.cz; the manufacturer's website). We'll see if it's suited to use in a knife. I'm going to slap some grip tape intended for firearms on the handle shells, which oddly, aren't adorned with the plastic veneers they usually are.


61iLHwiNSTL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:04 pm
by jerryd6818
RR out for delivery today.

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:57 pm
by TPK
Nothing new here! I got grounded! ::doh:: Wife said No more knife buying for two weeks. ::facepalm::
And our neighbors are from the former "East Germany". ::paranoid:: Probably watching me right now! ::paranoid::
This will be a looong two weeks! ::disgust::

Need some kind of a plan! ::hmm:: ::nod::

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:44 pm
by cody6268
TPK wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:57 pm Nothing new here! I got grounded! ::doh:: Wife said No more knife buying for two weeks. ::facepalm::
And our neighbors are from the former "East Germany". ::paranoid:: Probably watching me right now! ::paranoid::
This will be a looong two weeks! ::disgust::

Need some kind of a plan! ::hmm:: ::nod::
Do what I'm doing. I'm not spending as much this month, as I plan to buy either a MKI Deck Knife or a Ek Commando from the Kabar website during their 50% off Black Friday sale.

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:48 pm
by TPK
cody6268 wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:44 pm
TPK wrote: Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:57 pm Nothing new here! I got grounded! ::doh:: Wife said No more knife buying for two weeks. ::facepalm::
And our neighbors are from the former "East Germany". ::paranoid:: Probably watching me right now! ::paranoid::
This will be a looong two weeks! ::disgust::

Need some kind of a plan! ::hmm:: ::nod::
Do what I'm doing. I'm not spending as much this month, as I plan to buy either a MKI Deck Knife or a Ek Commando from the Kabar website during their 50% off Black Friday sale.
::hmm:: Black Friday! ::hmm::

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:39 pm
by cody6268
There's a guy who used to sell on eBay that started a seperate website selling used knives. Typically, it's the same common cheap SAK models and cheap mall ninja knives that are the typical fare of those who buy their knives from TSA auctions. Occasionally, he does sell some good stuff, and does have regular sales. This one was $22. His regular price was actually more than MSRP, but I got it for 40% off. Klein's MSRP on the black model is now just $36; which for a Japan-made folder is cheap. Oddly, the silver one is $40. Usually black coatings cost more. I don't care for them because they wear quickly, unless it's a powdercoat or Cerakote.

Klein Tools 44000BLK Lightweight Lockback Knife. Steel is AUS-8, and it only weighs an ounce. Small, at 3 1/8" closed with a 2 1/4" blade. Good for most stuff, and legal in most places that don't bar locking and/or OHO knives.

57_b64a8050-bb2a-47bf-9aac-a6013947c438_1024x1024.png
In unrelated news, I am kicking myself (and my folks are likely to chew me out; even though it is my own money) because I just spent $257 picking up some recent Matchbox and Hot Wheels releases; and this is at MSRP. Typically, the guy who picks them up for me just finds a few at a time (meaning it costs me $50 or less), but this time, he had 3/4 of it already, and found the rest in less than a week. Next time, I'm making sure I know how much the whole amount of items at once will cost before I make my list up. I thought, at first, he had maybe $75 worth of it. This blew my typical monthly diecast budget by 10X. Yes, I know there some people with large collections of fine high-end pieces (and I've seen a lot of 1/50 construction pieces like that) that each sell for more than this whole group of 50-something cars alone. But my standards it is-- Eeek! I'm selling some of my diecast off to help recoup that. I've sold one on another forum, for three bucks. Well, that's not a whole lot, but better than zero.

Thus, looks like I ain't buying anything for a LONG while.

Re: It's In The Mail

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:33 pm
by TPK
cody6268 wrote: Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:39 pm Thus, looks like I ain't buying anything for a LONG while.
Till Black Friday? ::shrug:: LOL! :lol: Nice looking knife Cody! ::tu:: :D