All About Pocket Knives

Hey, I think someone stole my knife. @#$%^&8!!!! spitting image anyway.

kootenay joe wrote: Quick spotting tip: Bertram Hen & Rooster folding knives never have a shield. "Never" is a statement by AGR who knows the company history & the knives going way back,.
kj

I have owned both Voss and C. Bertram stamped knives with shields. Many of A.G Russells BERTRAM stamped knives also had shields including the CM-4 through CM-9.

From A.G Russell on IKnifecollector,
A. G. Russell states...
There were a few for importers like Voss that were ordered with shields. before WWII
Mar 3, 2012

Tim, A.G. made a post in BF maybe 6-7 years ago in which he said "No original Bertram knife has a shield".
To say "always" or "never" in reference to knives puts one on 'shakey ground' so i have been hesitant to quote AG. However he is one of the most experienced 'knifers' alive today so i usually believe what he says. Perhaps he was meaning C.Bertram knives from before he took over ?
A search in Levine forum or Traditionals in BF of old AGR posts could, with luck, find the statement i am referring to.
Do you have an example of "C. Bertram" with a shield that you could post here ? I have never seen one and would like to.
Can you post a link to the March 3, 2012 A.G. Russell iknifecollector article. I need to read it !
I am away from my knives now but i do have all of the "CM" knives so must check how they are marked. Were the CM4 through CM9 all Bertram knives ? One of the CM is a Puma and a couple were made in Japan, but this is from memory so i do need to check the knives to be sure.
kj

KJ here is the link that i referred too.

http://iknifecollector.com/m/group?id=3 ... %3A02.614Z

Here is another link showing some of the shielded knives.

http://iknifecollector.com/group/agruss ... ent1259786

Here is a shielded C.Bertram..[image][/image]

Another fine H&R.

Stag Wharncliffe canoe, that's pretty special. Like that one lots. Here's a Hen & Rooster Congress with nice stag, too

basser5, thank you for those links and your picture of a Stag Bertram Stock knife with a shield !
I did not know of "icollector". A quote from your link says almost the same thing as i posted:
Quote: "As far as I can tell, Hen & Rooster knives that were made prior to 1980 were made without shields. The exception to that rule is the knives that A.G. Russell made during for The Knife Collectors Club during his ownership."
And then A.G. replied with the quote you gave: that Some importers like Voss did have shields mounted on some Bertram knives made before WW II.
I still think it is a helpful way to determine if a Bertram or Bertram Cutlery knife. Except for the AGR "CM" knives a shield on a C.Bertram knife is exceedingly rare.
Is the example you posted a Voss from before WW II ?
In my experience older (pre WW II) Bertram knives are rarely seen.
Thank you for your correction of my "never a shield" statement.
kj

Kj the knife that i posted is a house brand C.Bertram, not a contract knife.
Keep in mind that there are many Stag and pearl "Bertram Cutlery" knives without shields.
Another note... all round poultry shields will be on Bertram Cutlery knives BUT not all Bertram Cutlery knives have shields.
Therefore the only true way to identify one is the stamp. All Bertram Cutlery knives will be stamped as such.
I hope this helps some.

Tim, if you can see the name on the tang that can be most helpful but it is also helpful to 'read the knife'.
Ebay listings might only show the side with the Hen & Rooster logo showing. I have also seen Bertram knives listed as "Bertram Cutlery".
kj

My Hen & Rooster collection:
~Q~

Here is an old stag Bertram Hen and Rooster whittler with a shield, from my pile. I've probably got a better picture somewhere but this is the one I could find.

Ken

With Shield = Bertram Cutlery, i.e. factory made after 1980; with only very rare exceptions.
Above knife is Bertram Cutlery, not Bertram. This is not just a difference in name. There is a difference in how the knives were made and in the quality of construction. Most collectors give a higher value to the Bertram knives and consider the pre 1980 knives as the only 'true' Hen & Rooster.
kj

I'm gonna throw my 2 pennies in on this especially with regards to more modern Hen and Roosters. To my knowledge Frost, from 1980 on, had some built out by Olbertz some by Boker and possibly by others in Solingen Germany. All of which (to my limited knowledge) are firmly stamped "Bertram" (no C) and also "Solingen Germany." Most if not all the current stuff made over the course of the last few years doesn't say Solingen anywhere on them. Not to mention the mark side tang stamp of the birds is laser etched and not actually stamped. I have heard a lot of opinions on where these knives are currently being assembled, everywhere from Spain to China and all points in between. Most are not marked with a country of origin only "German Steel." Point being, those older marks, Gutmann, Voss, Carter, Lipschutz, and C. Bertram are generally older and top quality. Those marked Bertram should be looked at closely. They are not all bad, just remember, beware of those on ebay and don't just read the tang stamp... read the knife!

Quote from above:
"To my knowledge Frost, from 1980 on, had some built out by Olbertz some by Boker and possibly by others in Solingen Germany. All of which (to my limited knowledge) are firmly stamped "Bertram" (no C) and also "Solingen Germany.""
Correction needed: as has been stated quite a few times already in this thread and on this page even, the knives made after Frost acquired the rights to the Hen & Rooster branding in 1980, were No Longer marked "Bertram". The New Marking became "Bertram Cutlery".
Any post is more relevant if you read a thread before posting in it. Just reading the thread title is not sufficient.
If you disagree with what has already been posted, that is fine, even good at times as long as you state why you disagree.
kj

Just to clarify a few things...

DO NOT use the shield or no shield to identify the age of a H&R, you will get burned sooner or later.
Olbertz has never made a Hen and Rooster.
Post 1980 German H&R knives are Made by Klaas and Boker.
Knives marked "BERTRAM" only are A.G. Russell era knives. 1975-80.

Sorry if I stepped on toes. I wasn't trying to be disagreeable. I'll crawl back off into my hole.

jholcomb, don't do that. We all benefit from every post whether we agree or disagree, it gets us thinking. And, if nobody posted there would be nothing to read ! So, please, keep posting.
I disagree with basser5 on the shield: it is the best way to tell Bertram from Bertram Cutlery at a quick glance or if all you have is one dark or fuzzy picture. Maybe once in a few hundred Bertram knives there will be a shield, but in all the other knives you will correctly ID a knife as Bertram Cutlery if a shield is present.
When trying to identify a knife or it's manufacturer it is always better to base your decision on more than just one feature. If 3 or 4 aspects of a knife all point towards the same manufacturer then you have a higher chance of being right than using a single feature to 'diagnose'.
I use presence/absence of a shield as my primary feature to differentiate between Bertram & Bertram Cutlery for all except the AGR era (1975-80) but i also look at quality of construction (are inside surfaces of springs polished ?) and the markings. The advantage of the shield feature is that you can see if it is there, even in lousy pictures.
kj

[quote
I disagree with basser5 on the shield: it is the best way to tell Bertram from Bertram Cutlery at a quick glance or if all you have is one dark or fuzzy picture. Maybe once in a few hundred Bertram knives there will be a shield, but in all the other knives you will correctly ID a knife as Bertram Cutlery if a shield is present.

kj[/quote]

Kj if i take the time to post all of the Bertram Cutlery knives that do not have a shield will you quit posting false information for new collectors to view?
People come here to learn and as i stated before, there are many Frost Hen and Roosters without shields.


Jason i am truly sorry if i offended you, i sure didn't mean too.

Tim, i don't pay attention to Bertram Cutlery knives so i do not know what percentage lack a shield. This does not detract from the usefulness of the shield in differentiating Bertram from Bertram Cutlery.
When searching "Hen & Rooster" looking for Bertram knives it berings up a long list. I do not click on those with a shield because the chance of it being a pre 1975 Hen & Rooster is rare. I only click on those without a shield and then look at the rest of the knife and the markings.
The absence of a shield does not always mean the knife is a pre 1975 Bertram knife.
But, the presence of a shield almost always (99% ?) means the knife is a Bertram Cutlery.
That is why presence/absence of a shield on "Hen & Rooster" marked knives is most helpful.
If you want to post Bertram Cutlery knives that lack a shield i would enjoy looking at them, but it is not necessary as i have just explained.
kj

These all have "Spain" etched on the (pile side) tang
~Q~

QTCut5 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:06 am These all have "Spain" etched on the (pile side) tang

PC100306.JPG

~Q~

Holey Toledo, those are nice!

I believe this is the only one I have. I sure do like it but I haven't carried it in a while.
Covers look like some sort of End of Day clamshell.

Joe.. That sure is a LOOKER!!!
John

longbeachbum wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:15 am

Oman wrote:I assume(!) that hen and rooster is a diff. knife than a fight'n rooster. I have some of the latter and think that they are find of neat. Does anyone know about these Frank Buster knives? Thanx, Otto

You know, I really don't understand how anyone can get the names of knife brands mixed up. It's not like it's confusing or anything. I mean you have Hen and Rooster, Fightin Rooster, Fightin Bull, Bulldog -- where's the potential for confusion?

If I win the lottery just for fun I'm going to start two lines of knives and name them "Fightin Dog" and "Rooster and Bull".

On a serious note, you are safe with Fightin Rooster. They are made by the Olbertz factory in Solingen and are among the nicest and possibly the nicest brand coming out of that excellent factory. I only have one, but I feel confident saying they are excellent as users, and are very collectable as well.

Hi I have a Fight'n Rooster in my LDF Knives store take a look

Close as I could get to a 72.