All About Pocket Knives

jerryd6818 wrote:

Mumbleypeg wrote:Case, who arguably has produced the most genuine stag knives and has been a prolific producer of Sambar stag knives.

Ken

And then hafted away much of the character from the handles on their knives.

I agree. That's the inevitable result when you have thick handle material no matter what it is. That material needs to be hafted/tapered down to fit the bolsters. As was pointed out I guess consumer preference drove the thicker stag, along with Sambar stag having properties that enabled it. I'll still take it over the fake stag any day!

Since the subject of this post is Sambal stag, here's a link to some stunning examples. viewtopic.php?f=66&t=52114

Ken

Thanks for listing that earlier post Ken. Those are some remarkable stag covers. Gorgeous stuff.

Ken - Thanks for posting that link ... I'm not a Case collector at all and don't often check that subforum.... The background regarding Case knife handles is very interesting to me - that stag is nice but still much different to me than the old vintage Sheffield knives and I wouldn't probably associate the Case Stag as Sambar based upon my own ignorance not knowing the origin -

I agree with KJ that Sheffield had some of the nicest, thickest stag I have ever seen (again I assume Sambar and the look to me is different than the Case Stag ... ). I also find it interesting that a few noted that the stag used was thinner but became thicker during a certain time frame on Case knives... I wonder if that was maybe due to supply or just hafting technique - marketing? Even in Sheffield I think the Stag changed during the early to mid 1900s though seemed to be more consistent in the 1800s...

Anyway - here are a couple more Sheffield examples and probably both pre-1860 with integrated liners and bolster - I assume these are Sambar - both knives have very thick slab...

Rodgers -

Wostenholm -
and one more Amercian knife - Russell Rope Knife - probably +/- 1900 up to WWI.. Sambar?? (and an unfortunate chip on front but couldn't let this one go based on price)...

My perception at least has been that Sambar stag became much more prevalent after WWII, at least among U.S. manufacturers and notably with Case. I’m not sure what the source of old, pre-war Sheffield stag was, but I agree it does have a different appearance. I’ve heard stories of stag being “torched” and/or treated with permanganate to enhance its color, which if true could explain some of the differences in appearance. Maybe someone can give some insight - my comments are more speculation, hearsay, and anecdotal than fact-based.

It has been my observation that for whatever reason, Case often put the “smoother” pieces of stag on the mark side and the more gnarly pieces on the pile side. Perhaps also driven by customer preferences at the time. Here are a few examples of Case pile side Sambar stag. Click to enlarge.

Ken

RobesonsRme.com wrote:Surprising that someone hasn't attempted to introduce those into the U.S.
Surely, we have an environment/climate in which they would thrive.
Charlie

They have been introduced into the US.
"Sambar deer were introduced onto St. Vincent Island, Florida, in 1908[26] and increased to about 50 individuals by the 1950s. White-tailed deer also live on St. Vincent Island; however, they inhabit the highlands while the sambar deer mostly live in the lowlands and marshes. To ensure that the sambar deer population does not disrupt the native whitetails, hunting permits have been issued since 1987 to regulate the population. Each year, about 130 permits are offered for the three-day hunt. This maintains a sambar deer population of 70–100 individuals.[27] They do not herd, but occur in groups of four or five animals, possible family groups. Little is known about the sambar deer in Florida.[28]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambar_deer

To follow up on my previous statement, while I freely admit that these are in the minority, my opinion is these are pathetic examples of stag handles. (Ducking for cover. Let the shelling begin.)

Here are my Sambar Stag Randall’s. I’m very happy with them. You can clearly see how dense the centers are.

Here are some Buck “Sambar Stag”. In quotes because I have my doubts. Even though they are clearly advertised as Sambar. You can see some pith starting to show. Can’t see the ends because of the pommels. Love the knives. Just not sure they are Sambar Stag.

This is my bad Stag example. Sold as Amber Stag. I knew it was died the orange color. But it doesn’t look close to the picture on the site. I kept it because I got a good deal and it feels good to hold. It has a nice fat center. It is a good user.

jerryd6818 wrote:To follow up on my previous statement, while I freely admit that these are in the minority, my opinion is these are pathetic examples of stag handles. (Ducking for cover. Let the shelling begin.)

Jerry, I’ve seen a few of those pathetic stags before too. Always wondered who bought them.

Thanks for takin one for the team!

BTW that Russlock has “6.5 Bonestag” covers, not genuine stag.

Ken

Thanks Ken, Good catch. Deleted it.

Ken - Nice Case stag examples ... I can see the resemblance and no doubt towards bolsters the hafting may have diminished the overall look... also you may be right about old stag and dying but don’t know the answer - I also assumed some coloration was from years of handling... however I still think that old Sheffield stag was more gnarly but importantly that is my perception and not fact... is it an evolutionary change or pressure on the Sambar deer as Dale suggested in his post?

Jerry - Great examples of how hafting didn’t do justice to the stag - if indeed it is Sambar ..

Eveled - Randall made some wonderful knives ... was that fixed blade sold as having Sambar? It may well be but just curious...

There is a photo floating around of the Rodgers Stag supply room from long ago - doubt it helps much but can’t find that photo right now ... one other thing as an aside and a generalization but when comparing old Sheffield vs American knives I think Sheffield used much more stag whereas American cutleries used much more jigged bone - in fact jigged bone here was much nicer than many Sheffield examples though I think Sheffield examples are not all that common - like using true stag here...

All the knives I posted were sold as Sambar Stag. But who really knows?

The way it is going, Sambar Stag is going to fall under “buy the knife not the story”.

eveled wrote:The way it is going, Sambar Stag is going to fall under “buy the knife not the story”.

Agreed ... this is starting to remind me of Rogers bone - though I think some Rogers bone no doubt has an associated look and color from dying there are questionable examples...

Don’t forget all the Sandbar stag knives that are out there too. Lol. Buyer beware indeed.

I don't know what kinds of deer resided in Viet Nam, but I recall seeing what were two distinctly different ones.

One evening, while on an extended five day patrol, we were preparing to move into a bamboo grove for our "RON" or Remain-Over-Night position, when a smallish deer came crashing out and bounding away. The indigenous troops in the recon platoon, walking point, opened up on it with their M-16's.

They all missed. Encouraging.

That deer had the heaviest pair of antlers I have ever seen. They were wide at the base, three to four inches and went up in a mild curve for a distance of two feet, then forked only once with two short prongs at the top end.

The other was a very large deer that a assault helicopter crew had killed just because they could. They landed and loaded up the carcass on their skids, got airborne again and radioed our camp to see if we wanted for our indig troops to have. We said "yes", so they brought it to us.

That thing must have weighed six or seven hundred pounds, It was missing a good bit of fur and looked mangy, frankly.

They had already removed its antlers, so I never got to see them.

That might actually have been an old Sambar Stag.

The smaller deer, I have no idea, but if its antlers were as heavy as they looked, they'd make great knife handles.

Charlie

I've bought plenty of what was reported to be sambar stag rounds and slab pairs for knife making. It can have some amount of pithy center but the heavier and denser the material the better. I can't say that I could necessarily tell the difference between sambar or another type of similar dense stag but given that it doesn't make any difference to me. If the material is solid with good color and surface character that is what matters.

These pictures are all of what I believe to be sambar stag. I was a friend of the person that bought and imported this material and I know it came directly to him from India.

As you can see some of the rounds have some pithy centers but this material is all much heavier and denser than what is available from U.S.A. indigenous cleft hoof animals.

Charlie, do either of these look like your memory? According to Wikipedia, Viet Nam had both and not much else in the way of deer.

Hard to compare a dead antlerless carcass lying on helicopter skids with a standing fully antlered stag, but yeah, it was probably an old Sambar.

The Sika looks right, body-wise, but the antlers do not resemble what I recall. He was running like hell at the time though.

BTW; because the guys fired at that deer, we had to move about a thousand meters, in the dark, to locate an uncompromised location to spend the night.

Charlie

I suspect the "pith" you all are talking about is the remains of channels through which blood vessels ran. Since an antler requires a blood suppy, you will never find antlers without pith.

It's size might vay among the different species, but it's always going to be there.

Charlie

LongBlade wrote:Interesting info Dale ...

I’m curious but can you show the outside color and texture of the 6 handle slabs? I get this feeling that compared to 100 years or more ago the stag was different in color (maybe just age and handling was the reason) and the “gnarliness” was significantly more... Importantly this is my perception but I rarely see newer stag that has the attributes of that over a century ago on modern knives...

I think the reason for the different colors is twofold;
1) – Aging and use. As a person uses a knife, especially one that is used frequently, the stag will begin to absorb dirt and natural oils from the user’s hands. I believe this results in a lot of the nice golden colored stag we see on old European knives. A knife was a tool that were used frequently, several times a day, (not just to open the mail), and in many instances it may have been used for several hours the time, pruning, grafting, castrating, etc. Many of these chores add their own color in the form of dirt or even blood, but this dirt plus the oil from the user’s own skin help to color the stag some amazing colors, very much like the dirt and oil on a smoker’s hands will color a Meerschaum pipe over time. A well used Meerschaum pipe by can develop some amazing colors some quite similar to the colors found on the stag handles of will used antique Sheffield knives.

2) – The type and color of the dye applied. I think most all sambar stag is colored. I don’t believe that all the color we see on stag is natural. Having grown up on a ranch in the mountains I have found plenty of shed antlers. If a person finds them shortly after they are dropped they still have some color to them but if the antlers lie on the ground exposed to the weather and especially the sun, they can become bleached out and nearly colorless.
In this picture are three sets of sambar stag I purchased from the importer from India. I believe these three sets have been soaked in a solution of potassium permanganate, probably in an attempt to add some color to it. The brown chalky residue is quite familiar to me since I have literally soaked pieces of stag in potassium permanganate solution and ended up with exactly the same dry chalky look to the stag. You’ll notice that on a couple pieces I have tried to buff it to see if I can get a shine to it. I think it will shine out fine but I didn’t buff it a lot because I don’t want to ruin it for a future project.

I have some more stag slab pictures from different times within the last 60 years I think are interesting see. I will have to post those later when I have more time.

The earliest examples I have of unused sambar stag handle slabs come from the Henckels factory which was closed in 1960. The Henckels representative in the Pacific Northwest when I was managing the cutlery store in the 1980s was a gentleman named John Allison. John had a hobby of repairing pocketknives and so when he was in the Henckels factory for a sales meeting one year they asked him if he would consider repairing ankles pocketknives for the customers in the US. They wanted to serve their customers that they had in the US even though they were no longer making their own pocketknives. They gave John everything he could put in his two-car garage in terms of parts including but not limited to; blades, liners, bolsters, pens and handle material. The handle material was everything from MOP, tortoise shell (the real stuff), wood, jigged bone and of course plenty of stag. John made a beautiful two blade Jack with tortoise shell handles that was his EDC. It was a beautiful knife!
About 10 years ago I made a deal where I received a bunch of this old Henckels stag, much of which had warped. I figured a way to straighten it at least to a certain degree but I have used most of the really nice pieces already. The pieces below are some of the small stag handles I have left and some of them are a little warped. They warped again when they dried out without being held flat by being pinned to a knife.
The thing that strikes me the most about this stag is how thin it is. I have sometimes wondered if the old Germans had some way of cutting the outer layer off the antler and then flattening it out to make a nice flat handle. I don't know that they did this, but looking at some of the saw marks on the back of these slabs makes me wonder.


These six sets of stag handles I purchased this April at the OKCA show. I purchased them from custom knife maker Ron Lake, an Oregon resident. Schrade fans should recognize his name, he is Lake of Lake & Walker. Ron was selling some of the stag he didn't think he would need anymore. He said he had purchase quite a bit of stag at least 15 years ago or longer. If I had more money with me, I would have purchased more of his stag. I would've liked to have seen what he had the first day of the show instead of the last day when I found it.
What is notable about this stag, in my mind, it is also how thin it is. It's a bit thicker than the Henckels stag but not nearly as thick as a lot of the stag that you find these days.
In the second picture here you notice there is some gray or black color on the inside of the stag. I believe this is potassium permanganate or some other type of diet that has soaked through the stag from the outside.


The last two pictures are stag that I purchased from a importer that used to sell of the Oregon show. The gentleman had some health issues but I managed to connect with his company through the Internet and bought some stag from them. Apparently some of this stock, including stag has been sitting since his illness and they were just beginning to sell it off last year.
I find this stag to be quite a bit thicker than either of the two examples above. Is this from a different species of deer, or a sub species of sambar stag? I don't know the answer to that. I know that all three batches of stag in this post were presented to me as sambar stag. I don't know any way we could tell for sure if this is sambar stag or another species. Perhaps DNA testing would answer the question, but I don't have any idea where a person would send it to be tested.
The bottom line is aside from the curiosity of a lot of us collectors, I suppose it matters really little whether this is sambar stag or antler from another species of deer. As long as it looks good and performs well as a knife handle I'm good with it, (although I do like the look of that Henckels stag and wish I had a bunch more of it especially in larger sizes!)

Thank you for the fine analysis and presentation Dale.

Thanks Wayne for posting those examples ... Looks gnarly and one can see that a slab for a handle will have significant thickness... I do see differences among them in thickness to some extent but that is nature where a mold is not used ...

Thanks Dale Very informative and really nice examples... The last photo to me has that look of old Sheffield stag knives - the other 2 are nice but I can see some difference among the 3 batches shown - but again I would think that Sambar is not exactly the same on the surface among racks just based on nature. The racks of American Whitetail Deer certainly show differences and I would think would be the same for Sambar. I do agree with you on the color - Hand oils and use no doubt add color character on the old knives I allude to above - not only to stag but smooth bone as well as ivory.