All About Pocket Knives

Bill DeShivs wrote:The razor handle is real tortoise shell.

Bill, when I did the hot pin test on both the original knife handles and on the inside of the razor handles, both smelled exactly the same, gave me a headache for awhile after smelling it. Just wondering what in the pictures of the razor handles lead you to state that they are real tortoise shell? I am sure you have had lot's of experience with both tortoise shell and celluloid.

Thanks Lloyd.

Dan

I'm with Phil. Enjoying this thread.

danno50 wrote:

Bill DeShivs wrote:The razor handle is real tortoise shell.

Bill, when I did the hot pin test on both the original knife handles and on the inside of the razor handles, both smelled exactly the same, gave me a headache for awhile after smelling it. Just wondering what in the pictures of the razor handles lead you to state that they are real tortoise shell? I am sure you have had lot's of experience with both tortoise shell and celluloid.

Thanks Lloyd.

Dan

the razor handles looked like horn to me since you can see where it is delaminating, but it smells different than celluloid. making imitation tortoise from dyeing horn was popular back in the day

Muskrat man, when I bought the razor, I was hoping the if the handles were not tortoise shell that they might be horn, but not to be.

So I spent quite a few hours practicing peening pins and thought I was ready to pin my knife handles. Decided to go without any glue, in the event I screwed something up (quite likely) it would be easier to remove the handles and start again with out as much mess to clean up. Anyway, I took a couple of nervous pees, sat around for awhile thinking about it, and finally gave it a try, cracked the handle on the first pin! Successfully completed the last three with no cracks, however, as you can see in the pictures, still a little crude. The handles are still about .01" to .015" too thick, so I figured when they were hafted down that the pins would look better. Sorry for the bad pictures, for some reason I can not get my camera to focus properly not matter what I do and got tired of fighting with it.

A couple of thoughts and questions:

- when I watch the video of muskrat man finishing up peening the handles on a GEC sunfish, the pins seem to fit quite loosely in the holes prior to peening. When I drill a hole with the 1/16" bit, the 1/16" brass still fits quite snugly. Could this be a reason for cracking scales as there is not enough room for the pin to expand?

- also, I thought that the fit of the handles to the liners was nice and flat, however, when I pinned the handles, the liners bowed (see the third picture). I can squeeze the back side of the handles/liners flush with very little pressure, however, there is still a bit of a gap on the well side of the knife, which I suppose would not be too noticeable? Moot point anyway, as I have to make at least one new handle to replace the cracked one and that is the side that bowed the worst.

- the holes in the old handles and in the liners are 0.07" (1.8 mm) in diameter. The 0.07" nickel silver pinstock fits perfectly in them. However, I have as of yet been unable to locate any metric drill bits here in Saskatoon (a city of near 300,000 people). A 1/16" drill bit is about 0.008" too small and a 5/64" drill bit is about 0.008" too big. Have one more place to check next week but will likely have to buy an expensive set of metric drill bits to get the one size I currently need.

Dan

I don't have my charts handy but I think a #49 bit is very close to 1.8 mm and what I use. The pins seem loose because I ream the holes with a taper reamer to give them a touch of room to expand, plus if you finish the pins off flush its important so the handles don't just slide over the top of the pin.

If you're worried about the gap on the blade well edge between the two liners, don't be. A lot of older knives had the liners creased to make room for the blades to fold in to help prevent blade rub and the blade edge cutting into the liner if the blade became misaligned when closing. I've seen it on everything from 100+ year old knives of obscure manufacture up to case copperlocks made a dozen years ago.

I bought a number drill index & a handy plastic card with the number drill sizes which also includes metric sizes.

When I drill holes for 1/16" handle pins I use a #51 drill.
A 1/16" pin is .0625" in diameter. I use a #51 drill in the handle material which is .0670" in diameter. The .0045" clearance allows room for the pin to expand without cracking the handle.

When I stick to using the chart and allowing .004" to .008" clearance on pins, more clearance for larger pins, I rarely break a handle.

Just my method.

muskrat man wrote:I don't have my charts handy but I think a #49 bit is very close to 1.8 mm and what I use. The pins seem loose because I ream the holes with a taper reamer to give them a touch of room to expand, plus if you finish the pins off flush its important so the handles don't just slide over the top of the pin.

If you're worried about the gap on the blade well edge between the two liners, don't be. A lot of older knives had the liners creased to make room for the blades to fold in to help prevent blade rub and the blade edge cutting into the liner if the blade became misaligned when closing. I've seen it on everything from 100+ year old knives of obscure manufacture up to case copperlocks made a dozen years ago.

I am having a hard time finding numbered drill bits here as well. What angle is your reamer and how deep into the pin hole do you ream? I am having a hard time finding a suitable looking reamer as well. I did chamfer, or countersink the pin holes deep enough that when the pins were finished off flush there would still be some material holding the handle on. Thanks for the reassurance on the gap between the liners on the blade well edge.

orvet wrote:I bought a number drill index & a handy plastic card with the number drill sizes which also includes metric sizes.

When I drill holes for 1/16" handle pins I use a #51 drill.
A 1/16" pin is .0625" in diameter. I use a #51 drill in the handle material which is .0670" in diameter. The .0045" clearance allows room for the pin to expand without cracking the handle.

When I stick to using the chart and allowing .004" to .008" clearance on pins, more clearance for larger pins, I rarely break a handle.

Just my method.

Thanks Dale, downloaded a number drill index off the internet. Headed out in a few minutes to check all the industrial supply places in town to try find numbered drill bits and a drill size card as well.

I am also going to look for a disc or belt sander or a combination machine. Looking online at what might be available locally, most of the sanders are a combination 4" or 6" X 36" belt sander with an attached 6" disc sander. This would be primarily for thinning handle material and getting the handle ends square and to the right length, I think? Do you guys use the disc sander for much else besides handle material?

thanks for all the good advice
Dan

I can't provide that information because I broke mine a few weeks ago and have been unable to locate a suitable replacement (at least like the one I had) Dale posted a link to them on ebay a few years ago and I guess the guy is sold out of them by now. as far as depth I'd just give it a few turns, nothing drastic.

I order most of my tools and supplies online. No one local here has what I need and if they do the price is double what I can get it for online even after adding in shipping.

I like to buy local as much as I can, ordering online for things I can't find. By the time I pay 1.3 Xs for the difference in the $US and $Can and shipping, and sometimes Canadian taxes and fees assessed by Canada Customs, it is usually pretty close between local and online. If the quality looks better buying online, I will go that route. I did find numbered drill bits, in the sizes I needed, and a tapered bit that I am going to try to use as a reamer.
Not much progress to report, Have been practicing peening pins in the previously cracked handle I removed from the liner. Have had a lot of other stuff going on, and will be out of commission for the next 3 weeks or so. After that I will be back at it.
Have to say I have much respect for you guys that make things look so easy, I have an incredible amount to learn and experience and skills to gain.
Dan

danno50 wrote: Have had a lot of other stuff going on, and will be out of commission for the next 3 weeks or so. After that I will be back at it.
Have to say I have much respect for you guys that make things look so easy, I have an incredible amount to learn and experience and skills to gain.
Dan

Dan, it looks easy because we just don't show all our mistakes!
You say you're going to be gone for three weeks or so I hope all is well with you and you get back quickly.

What kind of sander are you looking for?
If I had to use only one sander I use a 1 x 42 belt sander in combination with a 8" disk sander. The first sander I bought was a 4 x 36" belt sander with a 6" disk sander attachment. While it is useful for thinning metals and handle material, it is not even close to being the most used sander in the shop! That honor has to go to the 1 x 42" Delta sander of mine. I do have a 2 x 72" belt sander and I use it a lot, but if I could only have one sander my choice hands down would be the 1 x 42" belt with the 8" disc sander!

10+ years ago when I started working on knives there were not many of types belts available for the 1 x 42", mostly they were inexpensive aluminum oxide belts. As the popularity of working on knives has increased so has the availability of the belts for the 1 x 42" sander.
I buy belts from a lot of different companies but one of my best sources is Tru-Grit: https://trugrit.com/index.php?main_page ... 54b6716e19
I probably get the majority of my belts from them.

I hope this information is helpful.
Best wishes Dan, we hope to see you back soon, safe and sound and ready to finish this Keen Kutter!

Should have waited for advice, I bought a 4" X 36" belt sander with an attached 6" disc sander. I also have a cheaper Delta 1" X about 42" belt sander (no attached disc sander). I can't seem to get either a square end or a flat sanded surface using the Delta? Thanks for the link for the belts source, I do need some, the belt on the Delta is about worn out.

I have been out and getting a bit of work done on the Keen Kutter, removing the cracked handle and getting another handle ready. Also still practicing peening pins. Bought some set screws to make a pin spinner as per the instructions in Adrian Harris's book. Tried cutting the cutting slots with my jeweler's saw, but gave up on that pretty quickly. I am going to have to purchase a Dremel or similar tool.

I am very much enjoying working on the Keen Kutter, going slow and learning lot's and I really appreciate all the advice and patience with a beginner.

I am getting a new hip tomorrow at 10:00 AM. I expect to be back home by Sunday and will be back to AAPK then, however, not sure how long it will be before I can get back out to the shop, hopefully within a couple of weeks. Worst part is I won't likely be able to be back to driving in time to get to Eugene for the OKCA show this year. Could probably fly by then, but I don't really like flying that much and it uses up a lot of knife buying funds.

Dan

Decided yesterday it was time to get back to this project. Truth is, after cracking a handle I kind of lost my nerve. Practiced peening pins until I felt I was ready to try again. I got the second handle pinned on and the handles mostly hafted. As you can see from the pic, there are some flaws. I countersunk the holes for the handle pins too much so the pins don't quite fill the holes. The handles are, however, solidly held on. The handles are not quite fully hafted, you can see the flat spots in the central area if you blow up the pic. I did this as the original knife had a peened and hafted flush spring pin. I wanted to leave more material so that hopefully there would be less chance of cracking the handle on the final step of peening the spring pin.
I have been practicing peening the nickel silver pins from both sides, like peening the bolsters. I have a very hard time not bending the pin material. Muskrat man makes it look so easy in his videos. I think I may put this one aside and take apart a beater knife to practice peening bolster pins on before I attempt it on this one.
The master blade snapped a little slow on closing, so I may try the method discussed in another thread (re-arching a spring) before putting it back together.
Dan

Last night and this morning I finally got around to pinning this knife back together. You guys will notice a few flaws, but I am pretty happy with it for a first time project. Now eager to check through my pile of flea market junkers to pick out my next project.
Dan

Dan I am not a knife mechanic but that looks pretty good to me! I applaud your initiative to give it a try You will only get better. Thanks for sharing your results. I have followed this thread with much interest. Best, Lloyd

Thanks for the kind comments, Lloyd,
Dan

She looks great Dan. I too have enjoyed following your progress.

Very nice Dan! I do believe you may have inspired me to give that a shot. Judging from your exploits I think I will start with some inexpensive handle material.

Guys, try Harbor Freight for all your drillbit needs. I know their cheap but if you take time with them they'll work for you, and if you break one it's not expensive to replace. ftd

I have found it is far less expensive to pay a few cents more for a sharper drill that stays sharp longer.
A dull drill or one that is slightly oversized or undersized can ruin a handle. All three are issues I have encountered with cheap drills.

One ruined set of $20 bone handles is too much, but if you are working with nice mammoth ivory or MOP saving 50 cents on a drill can cost you hundreds of dollars!

IMHO, it isn't worth it to me.

Dan that's a nice first try! I have my first rehandle around here somewhere and I don't think that it looks as nice as yours!

Thanks for the encouraging comments everyone. My biggest problem was over reaming and countersinking the pin holes, especially the centre pin, and then I couldn't get the pins mashed down enough to fill the countersink. It is still very solidly held together, though.
Dale, how much do you pay for your metric drill bits. I bought 4 each of metric numbers 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52 and 53. I found them locally in a specialized cutting implements wholesaler and paid about $2.30 to $2.50 each for them.
Dan

Orvet, I couldn't agree with you more, but American made drills are extremely hard to find, but most drills sold today anywhere are, (sigh) made in China. ftd

I don't recall exactly what I pay for them, my local supplier buys in bulk; I think I pay about $1/ea for the #51 drills.
I did buy some cheaper drills online but it took me 2 drills to drill pin 4 holes in a Western tang and 2 more to drill 4 holes in each of 2 stag handle. The tang I understand, but 2 drills to drill 8 holes in stag as a bit much!

I am afraid I have cheap drills mixed with good ones.
I may have to chuck them all and get new ones.

fergusontd wrote: Orvet, I couldn't agree with you more, but American made drills are extremely hard to find, but most drills sold today anywhere are, (sigh) made in China. ftd

I hear you Ferg.
I am fortunate to have a good local tool shop.
Even then, a lot of their stuff it's from overseas.