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Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:31 am
by philco
CheckSix wrote:Thanks Larry!
Here is one I was told that was Rogers... but I don't have enough experience to recognize it and know for sure.
Camillus 4 line swell end jack...
I'm thinkin' you were told right.
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:38 am
by CheckSix
philco wrote:CheckSix wrote:Thanks Larry!
Here is one I was told that was Rogers... but I don't have enough experience to recognize it and know for sure.
Camillus 4 line swell end jack...
I'm thinkin' you were told right.
Thanks Phil!
I wish I knew what it is, that y'all are seeing that makes it Rogers. I've read the Levine article, it does not tell you how to spot it, except the worm groove. So, if there's no worm groove, what is it about the jigging that makes it obviously Rogers? Or... does it have something to do with the color?
I haven't seen a description, that defines it.
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:15 am
by philco
The jigging is distinctive and once you learn it you'll know it whenever you see it. Most of the Rogers Bone knives I have do not have the worm groove like your previous post showed. They're like that harness jack you posted.
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:16 am
by CheckSix
Thanks Phil!
What do you think about this one? Rogers? or not?
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:31 pm
by philco
I think it is but I'm not 100% on this one. I'd like to see what Dale thinks.
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:08 pm
by CheckSix
philco wrote:I think it is but I'm not 100% on this one. I'd like to see what Dale thinks.
This knife is my original Schatt & Morgan Titusville knife from the 1895 - 1931 S&M time frame. So, I would think the knife is probably around WWI or into the '20s.
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:18 pm
by jerryd6818
CheckSix wrote:philco wrote:I think it is but I'm not 100% on this one. I'd like to see what Dale thinks.
This knife is my original Schatt & Morgan Titusville knife from the 1895 - 1931 S&M time frame. So, I would think the knife is probably around WWI or into the '20s.
Dave, S&M went bankrupt in the late '20s and 1927 sticks in my mind. I could be wrong on that date but it 'feels' right.
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:09 pm
by CheckSix
jerryd6818 wrote:CheckSix wrote:philco wrote:I think it is but I'm not 100% on this one. I'd like to see what Dale thinks.
This knife is my original Schatt & Morgan Titusville knife from the 1895 - 1931 S&M time frame. So, I would think the knife is probably around WWI or into the '20s.
Dave, S&M went bankrupt in the late '20s and 1927 sticks in my mind. I could be wrong on that date but it 'feels' right.
Okay Jerry, that's good info! I had looked it up in my Blade's Guide to Knives 7th Ed. book and they list S&M Titusville as 1895 - 1931. That's what I was going by.
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:26 pm
by RalphAlsip
A recent issue of Knife magazine had an informative article about the history of Schatt & Morgan. I'll look for it when I get back from church.
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:28 pm
by CheckSix
I think the end date for S&M is a side issue anyway. The question is, is that S&M I posted above, Rogers bone or not.
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:43 pm
by jerryd6818
Dave, you should be used to it by now. We do tend to take the road less traveled now and then.
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:51 pm
by CheckSix
jerryd6818 wrote:Dave, you should be used to it by now. We do tend to take the road less traveled now and then.
hahahaha...!!
I'm just redirecting it to being back on topic. Rogers bone. I'm trying to learn what is and what is not Rogers. I honestly do not know how to recognize it.
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:58 pm
by jerryd6818
Well you're not all by your lonesome. I visualize Rogers Bone as a very random jig of varying depths but when I look at a handle, sometimes it looks slightly too regular (organized?) and slightly too deep. Did you know the machine Rogers invented and built still exists? I've read that the family won't lend it, rent it or sell it.
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:09 pm
by carrmillus
CheckSix wrote:Thanks Phil!
What do you think about this one? Rogers? or not?
.............BINGO!!!!................
.......................
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:23 am
by RalphAlsip
These are my observations regarding Rogers jigging and were developed by handling knives that I believe to demonstrate Rogers jigging. I am not portraying myself as an expert and my feelings won't be hurt if I my observations are deemed to be incorrect or unhelpful.
I used a couple of my Case 45 patterns in the first picture. Dave I used your pictures in the second picture - and by the way my opinion is that your knives are Rogers jigged. And the third picture is a snippet of a Remington knife. It appears to me that there is some variation in Rogers jigging by knife brand. There is also much in common with Rogers jigging across knife brands.
Please feel welcome to correct and clarify as appropriate.
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:56 am
by LongBlade
Interesting Jerry and thanks for posting that info with comments
... I can clearly see a similarity in the jigging in the Rogers bone based on your examples... for some reason I always associate Rogers bone mostly with the color of lighter ends and darker centers of the scales or covers or handles
... I always come back to the question if all Rogers bone was similar in jigging and the color I have as my perception is just incorrect...
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:21 am
by CheckSix
WOW!! Jerry!! That is a really cool visual aid! I can see exactly what you are explaining. This is just awesome!
I'm going to look through some more of my photos of other knives and see if I can post a few more that I think fit the description you have above.
Here's one that I think has the Rogers pattern... a Camillus #70 Cattle knife
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:26 am
by CheckSix
and another... Craftsman (Camillus) 9474 Sta-Sharp Trapper
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:33 am
by CheckSix
maybe this one too? a John Primble Boker made large jack
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:39 am
by RalphAlsip
Dave and Longblade, thank you for the encouragement!
Dave, my opinion is that the 2 Camillus knives you posted are Rogers jigged. The Primble is a definite maybe
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:48 am
by orvet
Dave,
Personally, I’m not sure that S&M is Rogers bone. The jigging on that knife is very deep and square. Most Rogers bone I’ve seen has more rounded jigging, not usually as deep and the color is lighter than the color of your knife.
These are four-line Camillus knives made before or during World War II with Rogers bone and I have enlarged your picture and posted it for comparison. My apologies for the indoor pictures, but it is nighttime in pouring rain here.
Note how the jigging on your knife almost appears to have been cut out with the gouge, like one would use on wood. The top and bottom edge of the jigging seem to be parallel whereas the jigging in my picture looks more like it was cut with a round bur in a rotary tool.
Also the bone on your knife is darker than the Rogers bone on my knives. Granted pocket wear will lighten the color a little, but the color on your knife is much redder than the Rogers bone on these World War II era Camillus knives. The Rogers bone in my example seems to have a more golden coloration to it while your knife has considerably more red pigmentation to it.
I know very little about the original Schatt and Morgan knives other than what is posted in Goins. Goins says they were in operation from about 1902 to 1928. That knife looks way too new to have been made 89+ years ago. If it was kept in the box and never carried or handled or exposed to sunlight and I suppose it could look that good, but in my experience I have seen very few knives of that age that looks so good. When I first saw it I thought it was a Schatt & Morgan made by Queen Cutlery until I read what you posted.
I would like to hear from someone who collects Schatt & Morgan and hear their opinion on this knife.
I’m certainly not an expert on Schatt & Morgan and they would never claim to be an expert on Rogers bone. I just like Rogers bone and have quite a few pieces in my collection. The ones I show here are just World War II era Camillus knives because it is pretty well established that the bone Camillus used in that era was Rogers bone.
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:23 pm
by carrmillus
orvet wrote:Dave,
Personally, I’m not sure that S&M is Rogers bone. The jigging on that knife is very deep and square. Most Rogers bone I’ve seen has more rounded jigging, not usually as deep and the color is lighter than the color of your knife.
These are four-line Camillus knives made before or during World War II with Rogers bone and I have enlarged your picture and posted it for comparison. My apologies for the indoor pictures, but it is nighttime in pouring rain here.
Camillus WW II era Rogers bone.jpg
DSC_9247.JPG
Note how the jigging on your knife almost appears to have been cut out with the gouge, like one would use on wood. The top and bottom edge of the jigging seem to be parallel whereas the jigging in my picture looks more like it was cut with a round bur in a rotary tool.
Also the bone on your knife is darker than the Rogers bone on my knives. Granted pocket wear will lighten the color a little, but the color on your knife is much redder than the Rogers bone on these World War II era Camillus knives. The Rogers bone in my example seems to have a more golden coloration to it while your knife has considerably more red pigmentation to it.
I know very little about the original Schatt and Morgan knives other than what is posted in Goins. Goins says they were in operation from about 1902 to 1928. That knife looks way too new to have been made 89+ years ago. If it was kept in the box and never carried or handled or exposed to sunlight and I suppose it could look that good, but in my experience I have seen very few knives of that age that looks so good. When I first saw it I thought it was a Schatt & Morgan made by Queen Cutlery until I read what you posted.
I would like to hear from someone who collects Schatt & Morgan and hear their opinion on this knife.
I’m certainly not an expert on Schatt & Morgan and they would never claim to be an expert on Rogers bone. I just like Rogers bone and have quite a few pieces in my collection. The ones I show here are just World War II era Camillus knives because it is pretty well established that the bone Camillus used in that era was Rogers bone.
.........dale, those 5 knives are beautiful!!!!.......
...................
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:46 pm
by CheckSix
Hi Dale,
Thank you for your thoughts! The S&M knife came from an AAPK member, that got it from Steve Pfeifer years ago, who looked at it again and verified it is authentic. That's all I know. Your point on how the jigging looks and is different, is well taken. Thanks!
Look at the color of the worm groove bone on the Catt back on page 9. Not unlike the S&M. And then, what about the Boker made John Primble large jack up above? There seems to be fringe gray areas of Rogers bone, maybe?
Here I have another Camillus made for Sears Craftsman Camp knife, a 9548 Sta-Sharp. Similar time frame as the pictured Trapper, it is from that pre-WWII production era, from what I am told. It has a different color bone than you describe.... is it not Rogers?
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:50 pm
by CheckSix
Here's a Utica made Wards stockman I'm wondering about also...
Re: The Rogers Bone Thread
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:44 pm
by jerryd6818
I'm far from being an expert but to me, it has that randomness I associate with Rogers bone.