Confusing terminology
- OLDE CUTLER
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Confusing terminology
Since I have been on AAPK (coming on two years) I have learned a lot of stuff. However one thing that continues to elude me is the correct terminology as used on the various parts of a knife. I read of many people (including myself) that refer to the "handle material" of a pocket knife as "scales". When someone is rehandling a folder they refer to it as replacing the scales. I have even done this myself. If you look at the terminology as shown in the knife repair and collectors books, this does not appear to be correct.
Ben Kelley's book on knife repair. Note his labeling of bolster lining, side center scale, and handle. Adrian Harris book on knife repair. Note his labeling of full scale, cut scale, and handle. Jim Sargent's book on collecting. Note his labeling of the scales and cover. So it appears that there isn't a real uniform method, as the handle material could be called handle, or cover, or maybe other things as well. And the scale could be called the liner, or bolster lining, or other things. Maybe there are even regional differences in the terminology in different parts of the US.
Ben Kelley's book on knife repair. Note his labeling of bolster lining, side center scale, and handle. Adrian Harris book on knife repair. Note his labeling of full scale, cut scale, and handle. Jim Sargent's book on collecting. Note his labeling of the scales and cover. So it appears that there isn't a real uniform method, as the handle material could be called handle, or cover, or maybe other things as well. And the scale could be called the liner, or bolster lining, or other things. Maybe there are even regional differences in the terminology in different parts of the US.
"Sometimes even the blind chicken finds corn"
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Re: Confusing terminology
I think a lot of the differences in terminology depend on what part of the country(or world)you happen to live in;and it doesn't just apply to knife parts. Probably the most confusing(to me anyway)is the difference in terms concerning automotive items between the USA and England.I won't go into them but if you are into automobiles you know exactly what I mean.
I also think terms change over the years. When I was growing up the,"things on the side of a knife" I called "handles". Later on I started referring to them as,"scales";primarily because that is what many people in the knife community called them. I now have progressed to the point where I call them either term for no particular reason. The term "handles" seem to be more appropriate as that is the part of your anatomy that holds the knife. I suppose you could even refer to them as,"grips" but that seems to be reserved for firearms.
For a fixed blade,some would refer to them as,"handles" while others would call them "slabs" if they were two piece.That term doesn't work if you have a one piece item;then it would be called a "handle". Confused yet?
All manner of items have different terminology in the knife world. Is it a,"bail" or a "bail loop" or is it a "lanyard loop"? Does a blade have a,swedge" or a,"false edge"? Are they,"bolsters" or "end caps"? I could go on but I think the meaning is clear. I won't worry about what I can or cannot call a particular item on a knife and just continue to enjoy them.
Just my twopence folks;your mileage may vary.
I also think terms change over the years. When I was growing up the,"things on the side of a knife" I called "handles". Later on I started referring to them as,"scales";primarily because that is what many people in the knife community called them. I now have progressed to the point where I call them either term for no particular reason. The term "handles" seem to be more appropriate as that is the part of your anatomy that holds the knife. I suppose you could even refer to them as,"grips" but that seems to be reserved for firearms.
For a fixed blade,some would refer to them as,"handles" while others would call them "slabs" if they were two piece.That term doesn't work if you have a one piece item;then it would be called a "handle". Confused yet?
All manner of items have different terminology in the knife world. Is it a,"bail" or a "bail loop" or is it a "lanyard loop"? Does a blade have a,swedge" or a,"false edge"? Are they,"bolsters" or "end caps"? I could go on but I think the meaning is clear. I won't worry about what I can or cannot call a particular item on a knife and just continue to enjoy them.
Just my twopence folks;your mileage may vary.
Adventure BEFORE Dementia!
Re: Confusing terminology
Thanks OC. Learn something new...every day...especially in the knife world. My "knife IQ" has just risen from about a 26...to about a 26 1/2, on the 1-100 scale. Thanks to AAPK...my knife IQ, this time, last year...was about a 16. Still got a ways to go
Heretical Refurb / Mods of cheap old folders, since late 2018
- Steve Warden
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Re: Confusing terminology
Scales? Handles? Grips? Covers? Slabs?
Soda? Cola? Pop? Coke? Tonic?
Sub? Hero? Gyro?
Fountain? Cooler? Bubbler?
Dodge? Chevy? Ford?
(threw that last one in just for fun )
Soda? Cola? Pop? Coke? Tonic?
Sub? Hero? Gyro?
Fountain? Cooler? Bubbler?
Dodge? Chevy? Ford?
(threw that last one in just for fun )
Take care and God bless,
Steve
TSgt USAF, Retired
1980-2000
But any knife is better than no knife! ~ Mumbleypeg (aka Ken)
Steve
TSgt USAF, Retired
1980-2000
But any knife is better than no knife! ~ Mumbleypeg (aka Ken)
Re: Confusing terminology
Good post.
I read something similar some time ago.
I like to refer to handle material as covers because it seemed appropriate according to what I read and it seemed to make sense.
I also read about internal metal "scales" and "bolster liners" or just "liners". All seem to be appropriate terms.
I think it is important to use the knife mechanics terms of nomenclature in the forum. It would help folks new to knife collecting as well.
Not being a knife mechanic, the tommy pin is new to me. And the "file side" is odd.
I read something similar some time ago.
I like to refer to handle material as covers because it seemed appropriate according to what I read and it seemed to make sense.
I also read about internal metal "scales" and "bolster liners" or just "liners". All seem to be appropriate terms.
I think it is important to use the knife mechanics terms of nomenclature in the forum. It would help folks new to knife collecting as well.
Not being a knife mechanic, the tommy pin is new to me. And the "file side" is odd.
Joe
Re: Confusing terminology
YES IT IS CONFUSING SOMETIMES! Way back when I first started collecting and doing research on many different types of knives my first go to site was Case and the "Case College." I learned that there were many more sources of information, like AAPK for one. My personal opinion is, it's a generational thing and location and over the years as knife makers have come and gone, the increase in knife styles etc, the nomenclature is bound to change on some. Is it important to know all the terms, materials, and differences in the knife styles and purpose, I believe so if you are going to be a serious collector or converse on a fourm such as AAPK.
For me, I don't make knives, refurbish knives or even order knife parts. Have I learned most of the terms, yes, but handle or scale, liner or bolster liner, it's all irrelevant to me what you call them. I just like to find'um, buy'um, and display'um. BTW I'm still learning from good folks like these on AAPK and life is still fun.
For me, I don't make knives, refurbish knives or even order knife parts. Have I learned most of the terms, yes, but handle or scale, liner or bolster liner, it's all irrelevant to me what you call them. I just like to find'um, buy'um, and display'um. BTW I'm still learning from good folks like these on AAPK and life is still fun.
David R (United States Navy Retired)
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Don't just count your many blessings, be the blessing others count on!
Visit my website: Woodburning Art by David https://www.wdbydavid.com/
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Re: Confusing terminology
Just to add one particular term I cannot stand! The term,"slip-joint" or even worse,"slippie"! I guess it is easier than saying,"non-locking folding knife" but it still makes me grit my teeth when I see or hear it. JMHO
Adventure BEFORE Dementia!
Re: Confusing terminology
I think the knife terminology is confusing. Sometimes when I Google a part or term I am not
familiar with I get even more confused since a solid definitions does not show up.
Sometimes you just have to figure it out yourself I guess.
Maybe we could get a definition of words section in this forum?
Bob
familiar with I get even more confused since a solid definitions does not show up.
Sometimes you just have to figure it out yourself I guess.
Maybe we could get a definition of words section in this forum?
Bob
- Mumbleypeg
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Re: Confusing terminology
Now that would make for a lively discussion! We can’t all agree on anything, which is part of what makes AAPK fun!rea1eye wrote:
Maybe we could get a definition of words section in this forum?
Bob
As for me, I favor “handle covers” myself. But I’ve called them scales, and handles before too. Like others I’ve become somewhat educated by reading knife maker's sites and knife repair manuals. But all of them don’t agree either.
One eye-opener for me however is a term I used to use,”swedge”. (Even as I type this, the spellchecker is telling me it is wrong). I acquired a book about Sheffield Exhibition Knives, in which the text continually made reference to “swages”. I had previously always called them swedges. So I reached for a dictionary and sure enough, there’s no such thing as a “swedge” in the dictionary. On the other hand a “swage” is defined as “a groove, ridge, or other molding on an object”. I did eventually find an on-line dictionary definition for “swedge” - said it’s an alternate spelling for swage, see swage. So since then I’ve called them swages. My #%$@* spellcheck is happier.
Ken
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- WillyCamaro
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Re: Confusing terminology
I say scales and i'm sticking to it!
You bad Steve! And you forgot Toyota.
How's "Slip Joint Pocket Hand Tool" k7k...
You bad Steve! And you forgot Toyota.
How's "Slip Joint Pocket Hand Tool" k7k...
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Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
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Winston Churchill
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
Matthew 6:34
- zzyzzogeton
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Re: Confusing terminology
Re: "file side" ---
Until I saw "file side" on that Western parts diagram for the first time many, many years ago, I had NEVER heard the term. "Pile side" was the ONLY term I ever heard, other than "not the Mark side" by folks who didn't know the "pile" terminology. I know my grandfather called them "the mark side" and "the other side".
Since the book came out in 1978, I have seen a few references to the Western diagram and the Western definition wording, word for word. But that is the only times I see "file side".
Until I saw "file side" on that Western parts diagram for the first time many, many years ago, I had NEVER heard the term. "Pile side" was the ONLY term I ever heard, other than "not the Mark side" by folks who didn't know the "pile" terminology. I know my grandfather called them "the mark side" and "the other side".
Since the book came out in 1978, I have seen a few references to the Western diagram and the Western definition wording, word for word. But that is the only times I see "file side".
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Re: Confusing terminology
Most of the names for the parts of knives originated in Britain around 1800, or earlier. Manufacturing knives in USA began around 1830 ? or 1850 ?, whatever the date it came after the establishment in Britain. I think some of the terms were applied incorrectly in USA but that was so long ago that these uses of the words is now seen as correct.
"Scale" originally referred to the liners but at some point long ago it was used for the handle pieces aka 'covers'. So how does one decide now which meaning of 'scale' to choose ?
Levine suggests using the original meanings for knife terms if the original meaning can be proved, i.e. in a written document that dates to early 1800's.
Levine also uses: "swage" as this is the word used in 1800's Britain. Most people however use: "swedge".
kj
"Scale" originally referred to the liners but at some point long ago it was used for the handle pieces aka 'covers'. So how does one decide now which meaning of 'scale' to choose ?
Levine suggests using the original meanings for knife terms if the original meaning can be proved, i.e. in a written document that dates to early 1800's.
Levine also uses: "swage" as this is the word used in 1800's Britain. Most people however use: "swedge".
kj
Re: Confusing terminology
when I first started doing this I read (I can't find where) scales on a fixed blade, handles on a folder. I remember because it's the opposite of the way I would do it. I have also seen that nobody seems to follow that rule, or any other for that matter. It doesn't seem to matter what term is used because everyone knows what you're talking about anyway.
Bruce
Bruce
- jerryd6818
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Re: Confusing terminology
Just to add to the confusion, another blown up parts chart.
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The Few. The Proud.
Jerry D.
This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012
- Paladin
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Re: Confusing terminology
Thank you, sir. I am on board!knife7knut wrote:Just to add one particular term I cannot stand! The term,"slip-joint" or even worse,"slippie"! I guess it is easier than saying,"non-locking folding knife" but it still makes me grit my teeth when I see or hear it. JMHO
Ray
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God Bless the USA
Please visit my store SWEETWATER KNIVES
"Buy more ammo" - Johnnie Fain
"I'm glad I ain't scared to be lazy." Augustus McCrae
- peanut740
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Re: Confusing terminology
Ditto!!Paladin wrote:Thank you, sir. I am on board!knife7knut wrote:Just to add one particular term I cannot stand! The term,"slip-joint" or even worse,"slippie"! I guess it is easier than saying,"non-locking folding knife" but it still makes me grit my teeth when I see or hear it. JMHO
Ray
Roger
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Re: Confusing terminology
Can I jump on board?
Forged on the anvil of discipline.
The Few. The Proud.
Jerry D.
This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012
The Few. The Proud.
Jerry D.
This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012
Re: Confusing terminology
I guess I don't really mind the term "slipjoint", just because what other simple term should we use?
That is not a rhetorical question.
I do however hate the following terms.
Slippie
Spydie for a Spyderco
Spydie hole
Wharnie
Etc.
That is not a rhetorical question.
I do however hate the following terms.
Slippie
Spydie for a Spyderco
Spydie hole
Wharnie
Etc.
David
"Glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife" Meat Loaf
"Glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife" Meat Loaf
Re: Confusing terminology
I read somewhere (unfortunately I don't remember where) that the term "scale" referred to the part that was next to the blade or tang.
For a fixed blade if the handle was directly against the blade (tang) it is called a scale.
In a folder if it is the liner against the the blade (tang) then the liner is called scale.
If the handle material is against the blade (tang) like on some tactical type folders then the handle material could be called a scale.
For a fixed blade if the handle was directly against the blade (tang) it is called a scale.
In a folder if it is the liner against the the blade (tang) then the liner is called scale.
If the handle material is against the blade (tang) like on some tactical type folders then the handle material could be called a scale.
David
"Glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife" Meat Loaf
"Glowing like the metal on the edge of a knife" Meat Loaf
- Mumbleypeg
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Re: Confusing terminology
That’s my understanding also. That confusion between “scales” on fixed blades and folders is why folks have conflated the two.edge213 wrote:I read somewhere (unfortunately I don't remember where) that the term "scale" referred to the part that was next to the blade or tang.
For a fixed blade if the handle was directly against the blade (tang) it is called a scale.
In a folder if it is the liner against the the blade (tang) then the liner is called scale.
If the handle material is against the blade (tang) like on some tactical type folders then the handle material could be called a scale.
Ken
Member AKTI, TSRA, NRA.
If your religion requires that you hate someone, you need a new religion.
When the people fear their government, that is tyranny. When government fears the people, that is freedom.
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If your religion requires that you hate someone, you need a new religion.
When the people fear their government, that is tyranny. When government fears the people, that is freedom.
https://www.akti.org/
- Steve Warden
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Re: Confusing terminology
Whatcha got?jerryd6818 wrote:Can I jump on board?
Take care and God bless,
Steve
TSgt USAF, Retired
1980-2000
But any knife is better than no knife! ~ Mumbleypeg (aka Ken)
Steve
TSgt USAF, Retired
1980-2000
But any knife is better than no knife! ~ Mumbleypeg (aka Ken)
Re: Confusing terminology
my two cents worth, Being a fixed blade knife maker, I buy "scales" for the "handles. The scales I buy are rough cut pieces of what ever material, about 1 1/4"x 5" x 1/4". After I get them finished on a fixed blade knife I refer to them as "handles". ?Terry
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- zzyzzogeton
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Re: Confusing terminology
While we're grousing about terminology usage, I'll throw another one out there....
Tang stamps. They are ricasso stamps. A tang is the part of the knife to which scales are attached to form the handle. A ricasso is the flat part of a knife blade aft of the plunge grind and forward of the handle.
The only true "tang stamps" that come to mind are on Japanese swords/knives of various flavors where the smith stamped or engraved in his name/etc on the nagako (tang) UNDER the tsuka (handle).
Tang stamps. They are ricasso stamps. A tang is the part of the knife to which scales are attached to form the handle. A ricasso is the flat part of a knife blade aft of the plunge grind and forward of the handle.
The only true "tang stamps" that come to mind are on Japanese swords/knives of various flavors where the smith stamped or engraved in his name/etc on the nagako (tang) UNDER the tsuka (handle).
- Mumbleypeg
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Re: Confusing terminology
Gee thanks zz! Confused enough already - I didn’t need that too!zzyzzogeton wrote:While we're grousing about terminology usage, I'll throw another one out there....
Tang stamps. They are ricasso stamps. A tang is the part of the knife to which scales are attached to form the handle. A ricasso is the flat part of a knife blade aft of the plunge grind and forward of the handle.
The only true "tang stamps" that come to mind are on Japanese swords/knives of various flavors where the smith stamped or engraved in his name/etc on the nagako (tang) UNDER the tsuka (handle).
Ken
Member AKTI, TSRA, NRA.
If your religion requires that you hate someone, you need a new religion.
When the people fear their government, that is tyranny. When government fears the people, that is freedom.
https://www.akti.org/
If your religion requires that you hate someone, you need a new religion.
When the people fear their government, that is tyranny. When government fears the people, that is freedom.
https://www.akti.org/
- jerryd6818
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Re: Confusing terminology
Nothing. Just my way of agreeing with the two previous posts.Steve Warden wrote:Whatcha got?jerryd6818 wrote:Can I jump on board?
As for tang stamps and what part of a knife is called the tang, I offer two knife parts naming charts from two well respected "experts" (second one is by Ben Kelly). Make your own decision, believe it or don't.
Forged on the anvil of discipline.
The Few. The Proud.
Jerry D.
This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012
The Few. The Proud.
Jerry D.
This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012