the stainless military utuility knife

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thickskinner54
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the stainless military utuility knife

Post by thickskinner54 »

Hey guys, did all of these knives come with a bail loop? This one is a Camillus 19712 model and it does not have a bail, did some come this way or was this one broken off or replaced? doesn't look tampered with. Thanks for any help with this.
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thickskinner54
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by thickskinner54 »

1971 it should say, I didn't proofread it..sorry :)
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XX Case XX
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by XX Case XX »

All the ones I've seen have a bail. Also, I have a 1981 version and it too has a bail. And come to think of it, a while back, some guy on eBay was selling a whole mess of these from all different years and they had bails.

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thickskinner54
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by thickskinner54 »

Thanks, Mike, the ones I remember seeing I'm pretty sure had a bail, but I'm not 100% on that. The rivets are tight on this so it doesn't look like there is anything missing, here's the tang stamp. A few different companies produced these right? Do you think maybe Camillus may have left off the bail for a few years? Thanks
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treefarmer
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by treefarmer »

I've had several of these and seems they all had bails. The only one I could find right now is a 1986 with a single "Q" on the tang. A Queen of course and it has a bail/shackle on the opposite end. I blew up your pictures and it looks like the rivet on the back end of the knife has been peened compared to the other two rivets. Some one may have removed the bail because they didn't like it and again it may have been made that way. The rivet may tell the story. ::hmm:: They are rugged knives but not much to look at. :)
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just bob
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by just bob »

I went to Google and searched for metal military knife and then clicked on images. All of the knives similar to yours pictured have bails, with one exception about midways down. These knives are notorious for having broken springs. In fact I think I have 4 -5 right now needing a spring. It is entirely possible one of these has been repaired and the bail either lost or was just left off because it was easier to put back together. Not rocket science to put a head back on the pin and make the repair virtually undetectable. My best guess is that all of the original knives had bails. As it added to the utilitarian value of the knife. Maybe some later date knock offs were made without bails? They were still making similar knives in the USA in the 1990's and I think there are modern China knock offs. Here is my Google search.

https://www.google.com/search?q=metal+m ... .56#imgrc=_
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by eveled »

These were a focus of my collection for a very long time, I’ve looked at thousands of them. From every maker.
Unless an employee made one without a bail to take home. They all had bails. Usually you can see the rivets look different.

The ones in this picture without bails have different blade configurations.
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by Gunsil »

Hey eveled, did you have a 1949 Camillus in your collection? I have heard they are quite rare. I believe Camillus did make one without a bail but it didn't have the US on the scale. Another note, the first ones, made at the end of WW2 had scales of monel rather than stainless. I don't consider any from the 1960s up to be "sturdy" knives. I carried many over the years and they would get wobbly blades with some but not a lot of hard use. I think they'd last me maybe two years before they got so loose I got a newer one. Of course two years was also a tour so maybe that was all they were intended to last.
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by eveled »

No I don’t have a 1949 one. My focus at the time was different manufacturers and the different handle markings/finishes. In other words variants not years.

I have not noticed any monel ones. Not sure I could tell the difference?

I’ve noticed the sturdiness factor too. The best users are the stainless ones that have the pin on the cap lifter. I have heard that was a tool for a rifle take down pin? Not sure but they seem sturdier from that era.

Then it evolved into the smooth “stainless handle” and other knives with the same dimples. Then the bone handled military ones.

It started when I wanted birthyear Camillus knives for my nephews and my children. Most were easy to get I think I had a hard time with 1999. It must be a rare one. I was recovering from multiple shoulder surgery and spent too much time on eBay searching and cataloged everyone for most of a two year period. But can’t find the notes.

The Camillus without the US I was told was for Canada. I’ve never seen one without a bail.

I have two favorites. One made by Case. I’ve been told it was made by Camillus but it seems to be made to a higher standard brass liners and better fit smoother action.

The other is my mountain division knife with the Phillips bit for their ski bindings.
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by kootenay joe »

Mike Silvey's book "Pocket Knives of the United States Military" calls this knife "Knife, Pocket, General Purpose" and he shows 5 examples, all with the long flat bail. He states that the manufacturers (mainly Camillus, Imperial, Ulster, Queen & Schrade) also made civilian versions. Quote page 123: "Those that display U.S.M.C., U.S.N., or U.S.A.F. on the handle have no real military affiliation"
He does not mention anything about not having the bail so presumably all versions originally had a bail.
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by eveled »

There were lots of fun variants when Camillus was still alive. They jumped on every band wagon they could to sell knives.

I have one from NAHC. North America Hunting Club

one with a flag painted handle I think they were all made in 2001..

One with a flat desert sand treatment for desert storm. seems kind of scarce. Doesn’t make much sense to me it would be too easy to loose. Lol.

I had fun collecting them. The dura-tools and what-a-knifes are neat too.

I just got one marked Buck on the main blade but I think it is fake. I’ve also seen some creative blade replacements.
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by knife7knut »

I am currently pursuing one that is tang stamped,"USA" and the pin on the cap lifter/screwdriver is missing. I understand that this is the way they were made. I'm hoping I can acquire it soon;it is supposedly WWII era.It has a bail.
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eveled
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by eveled »

If they were made without the pin there would be no need for the hole.

Are the scales stamped US?

Are the blades carbon steel?

It’s probably a Kingston.
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by tongueriver »

I had to look it up:
"Definition of Monel Metal—used for an alloy of approximately 67 percent nickel, 28 percent copper, and 5 percent other elements that is made by direct reduction from ore in which the constituent metals occur in these proportions"
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by Gunsil »

eveled wrote:If they were made without the pin there would be no need for the hole.

Are the scales stamped US?

Are the blades carbon steel?

It’s probably a Kingston.
I have four Kingstons, none have any tang stamp and none were made with US on them, they all say US Marine Corps as all the WW2 ones did as far as I know. They all have carbon blades and brass liners. The super rare Camillus 1949 one also has brass liners. I asked the guys at the little Camillus museum if the 1949s had stainless or monel handles but they did not know.
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by kootenay joe »

Quote Gunsil: "they all say US Marine Corps as all the WW2 ones "
Did you read my post above ?
According to Mike Silvey the knives you are speaking of were all civilian issue, not military.
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by Gunsil »

Roland, don't get me going please. Did YOU not read my post? The first of these knives issued by the US to military personnel were made in 1945 and have US Marine Corps printed in the scales. They do NOT say USMC and they are 100% correct. Silvey is referring to those marked exactly as you put it, but not with Marine Corps spelled out. Better read your US military knife books a little closer.
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by eveled »

The ones that say us marine corps all spelled out were issued in ww2. They were not made by Camillus. They were Made by Kingston.

It’s the Camillus ones that were made for each branch that were not issued. These just have the initials. Small font usmc large USMC, USN, USAF. I have never seen one handle stamped USA.
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by eveled »

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One is bail stamped Stevenson with no US on the handle. The other bail stamped Stevenson 45 is handle stamped US over the dimples
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by eveled »

This is the closest one I have to what the Knife7knut is looking at. Master is stamped. USA. It has a pen blade instead of an awl. With no bail stamp. No makers marks. I think it is a Kingston could be Stevenson? As Gunsil pointed out Kingstons did not have the US stamped handles but they did have blank handles.

These unmarked steel blade brass liner knives are somewhat of a mystery to me. Especially if the bail is missing. Kingston was a joint venture between Ulster and Imperial for the war effort. So after the war either company could have made more? There are also various 3 blade knives one I have is actually tang stamped Kingston.

Stevenson seemed to just make the two runs of bail stamped knives then disappeared.
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by kootenay joe »

I assumed that Silvey's use of "U.S.M.C." referred to "U.S. Marine Corps". He makes no mention of any of these knives as having "U.S. Marine Corps". My post was based on the info Silvey gives. I did not know that it is incomplete/inaccurate.
Why did my post 'get you going' ? If we all posted identical 'information' there would be no point in having a forum. I come here to learn. A good way to learn is to post what you think to be correct. If a number of others correct it then i update/revise my 'knife knowledge'. I never troll which would be a post made with the intention of 'getting someone going'.
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by eveled »

If you start looking for patterns in the dimples you’ll make yourself crazy. But it seems the blank space around the center pin on the Stevenson’s has a round top with straight sides. The Kingston’s seem more like a circle with the bottom chopped off.
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by eveled »

kootenay joe wrote:I assumed that Silvey's use of "U.S.M.C." referred to "U.S. Marine Corps". He makes no mention of any of these knives as having "U.S. Marine Corps". My post was based on the info Silvey gives. I did not know that it is incomplete/inaccurate.
kj
It is accurate if he was writing about the modern Camillus knives. Which I think he was.
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by kootenay joe »

Silvey mentions Camillus, Imperial, Ulster, Schrade and Queen. For the quote i gave in my first post he does not specify a brand nor is it written in a way that implies he is speaking of Camillus. The quote is: "Those that display USMC, USN, or USAF on the handle have no real military affiliation".
If you are a collector of these knives you might know 'ya he's referring to Camillus here'. But to the rest of us there is no way to connect this statement to only Camillus.
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Re: the stainless military utuility knife

Post by Gunsil »

Doesn't matter that Camillus is the only company that made the USN, USMC, and USAF knives, Silvey's statement is correct and not confusing. He is not stating they were made by all the manufacturers he mentions nor is he saying they were only made by Camillus, just that they were not military issue. I just posted my 1949 Camillus to see if there are others who are aware of it's rarity and see if the values I have been told are correct.
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