Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
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Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
Why do many cattle knives have a pen blade instead of a sheepsfoot? You especially see it on the knives with 3 blades and a punch, like the ones that Sears and Wards carried. I have a Sears 9469 and it has a clip, punch, spay, and pen blade but no sheepsfoot. And other ones are similar. It seems like the standard set up on a stockman or a cattle knife is the clip, sheepsfoot, and spay. Why did the companies put a pen blade some of them instead of a sheepsfoot blade?
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
Good question. Probably because some customers wanted them. The Case 64047 is another example - California clip, spay, pen, and a punch. Never made with a sheepfoot that I know of.
You’ll find numerous posts here on AAPK debating the pros and cons of, and preferences for different types of blades. One of the main features of stockman and cattle knife patterns is that one of the blades is usually a spay blade. The sheepfoot seems to be optional. And despite the spay requirement being stated in Levine’s Guide and other respected references, you’ll get arguements from some about even that.
Welcome to AAPK!
Ken
You’ll find numerous posts here on AAPK debating the pros and cons of, and preferences for different types of blades. One of the main features of stockman and cattle knife patterns is that one of the blades is usually a spay blade. The sheepfoot seems to be optional. And despite the spay requirement being stated in Levine’s Guide and other respected references, you’ll get arguements from some about even that.
Welcome to AAPK!
Ken
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If your religion requires that you hate someone, you need a new religion.
When the people fear their government, that is tyranny. When government fears the people, that is freedom.
https://www.akti.org/
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
That is just one of the ways the pattern was offered. In the old days each pattern usually had more blade variations that they do today because the demand and uses for them was higher back then. The pen blade was just one of many different options. Cattle knives in general are much less commonly made than they used to be, stockmans are mostly the same functionally and they kind of took over.
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
I have a few cattle knives with sheepsfoot and pen secondary blades and I like that configuration just fine.
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
Nice one Tony. I believe Levine calls that a “utility knife”, made on a cattle knife frame. How long is it?
Ken
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
I prefer a pen on a cattle knife for use, but there's also something about the looks of the more broad spey that is suiting to the heft of a cattle knife.
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
A sheepsfoot blade is suitable for a variety of cutting needs but has one drawback: when closed the spine is well above level of liners and makes the grip uncomfortable especially if you are cutting something that requires force and thus a tight grip. This might be why a pen blade is used instead of a sheepsfoot.
kj
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
OK, thanks to everybody for the information.
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
Thanks for the welcome, Ken.Mumbleypeg wrote:Good question. Probably because some customers wanted them. The Case 64047 is another example - California clip, spay, pen, and a punch. Never made with a sheepfoot that I know of.
You’ll find numerous posts here on AAPK debating the pros and cons of, and preferences for different types of blades. One of the main features of stockman and cattle knife patterns is that one of the blades is usually a spay blade. The sheepfoot seems to be optional. And despite the spay requirement being stated in Levine’s Guide and other respected references, you’ll get arguements from some about even that.
Welcome to AAPK!
Ken
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
Ken, good information. On the older Case 3 blade 45 patterns (pre 1940), a sheepfoot blade seems very uncommon. For the main blade, either a clip or a spear are common. The spey seems prevalent and the 3rd blade is usually a pen with a punch as the non pen alternative. Other makers seem to use the sheepfoot blade more often on their cattle patterns. The XX Case 45 3 blade pattern seems to only have a clip main along with sheepfoot and pen secondaries.Mumbleypeg wrote:One of the main features of stockman and cattle knife patterns is that one of the blades is usually a spay blade. The sheepfoot seems to be optional. And despite the spay requirement being stated in Levine’s Guide and other respected references, you’ll get arguements from some about even that.
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
In my humble opinion pen blades look nicer to me. Don't like sheepsfoot for the reasons stated before. But for using, sheepers are much better suited.
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Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
Now just thinking,
A warncliff and pen secondary would be a great combination...
A warncliff and pen secondary would be a great combination...
"Never, never, never give up."
Winston Churchill
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
Matthew 6:34
Winston Churchill
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
Matthew 6:34
Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
I don’t cull any of the variations. I’ve been packing the redone Camillus with a bail today.
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
It’s always interesting to read threads like this and see the different perspectives. Levine says the cattle knife was developed in the 1870s, designed for working on and around livestock. Therefore the blades would have served a useful purpose for the knife’s users at the time. In those days there were no knife collectors. People bought knives as tools to be used, so the buyers of cattle knives would be looking for a knife having blades they found useful. Thus the reason most cattle knives have either a spear or clip master, a spay secondary, and either a sheepfoot, pen, or punch for the other secondary.
As we collectors get farther and farther from the dates when the various patterns originated, the historical circumstances of their origins become lost or secondary. The cattle knife is a good example. It seems for many collectors the cattle knife has become known and identified by its shape alone, with little or no concern for what blades it has.
As patterns evolve to please the tastes of today’s buyers, cutlery makers might indeed put Wharcliffe or various other blades into an equal-end knife, to suit the tastes and uses of current day buyers. That’s how the marketplace works - very few people “doctor” livestock today. But IMHO as one who values history, when altered as such they’re no longer “cattle knives”. JMO
Ken
As we collectors get farther and farther from the dates when the various patterns originated, the historical circumstances of their origins become lost or secondary. The cattle knife is a good example. It seems for many collectors the cattle knife has become known and identified by its shape alone, with little or no concern for what blades it has.
As patterns evolve to please the tastes of today’s buyers, cutlery makers might indeed put Wharcliffe or various other blades into an equal-end knife, to suit the tastes and uses of current day buyers. That’s how the marketplace works - very few people “doctor” livestock today. But IMHO as one who values history, when altered as such they’re no longer “cattle knives”. JMO
Ken
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If your religion requires that you hate someone, you need a new religion.
When the people fear their government, that is tyranny. When government fears the people, that is freedom.
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
Ken, you make an excellent point. Considering "cattle" is right there in the name, a spey seems like the natural secondary blade of choice.
I still like my sheepsfoot better though.
I still like my sheepsfoot better though.
Good name for it. The Imperial is 3 11/16" closed. I have a Pal Blade equal-ender with spear, sheepsfoot and punch that goes about 3 7/8" closed, too.Mumbleypeg wrote:Nice one Tony. I believe Levine calls that a “utility knife”, made on a cattle knife frame. How long is it?
Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
I’m with you Ken on the wharncliff. I just don’t think it’d be right on a “cattle” knife. Clip/Spear are both useful at the barn or in the shop, so is a punch blade. I’m a sheepsfoot fan, and it’s probably the the blade i use the most. It I think a spey or a pen is necessary. Both can be used for the “surgery” as they share the same general shape, just a difference in amount of belly mainly.Mumbleypeg wrote:It’s always interesting to read threads like this and see the different perspectives. Levine says the cattle knife was developed in the 1870s, designed for working on and around livestock. Therefore the blades would have served a useful purpose for the knife’s users at the time. In those days there were no knife collectors. People bought knives as tools to be used, so the buyers of cattle knives would be looking for a knife having blades they found useful. Thus the reason most cattle knives have either a spear or clip master, a spay secondary, and either a sheepfoot, pen, or punch for the other secondary.
As we collectors get farther and farther from the dates when the various patterns originated, the historical circumstances of their origins become lost or secondary. The cattle knife is a good example. It seems for many collectors the cattle knife has become known and identified by its shape alone, with little or no concern for what blades it has.
As patterns evolve to please the tastes of today’s buyers, cutlery makers might indeed put Wharcliffe or various other blades into an equal-end knife, to suit the tastes and uses of current day buyers. That’s how the marketplace works - very few people “doctor” livestock today. But IMHO as one who values history, when altered as such they’re no longer “cattle knives”. JMO
Ken
Now I think I need more cattle knives. Fantastic old pattern.
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
Colonel26 wrote:I’m with you Ken on the wharncliff. I just don’t think it’d be right on a “cattle” knife. Clip/Spear are both useful at the barn or in the shop, so is a punch blade. I’m a sheepsfoot fan, and it’s probably the the blade i use the most. It I think a spey or a pen is necessary. Both can be used for the “surgery” as they share the same general shape, just a difference in amount of belly mainly.Mumbleypeg wrote:It’s always interesting to read threads like this and see the different perspectives. Levine says the cattle knife was developed in the 1870s, designed for working on and around livestock. Therefore the blades would have served a useful purpose for the knife’s users at the time. In those days there were no knife collectors. People bought knives as tools to be used, so the buyers of cattle knives would be looking for a knife having blades they found useful. Thus the reason most cattle knives have either a spear or clip master, a spay secondary, and either a sheepfoot, pen, or punch for the other secondary.
As we collectors get farther and farther from the dates when the various patterns originated, the historical circumstances of their origins become lost or secondary. The cattle knife is a good example. It seems for many collectors the cattle knife has become known and identified by its shape alone, with little or no concern for what blades it has.
As patterns evolve to please the tastes of today’s buyers, cutlery makers might indeed put Wharcliffe or various other blades into an equal-end knife, to suit the tastes and uses of current day buyers. That’s how the marketplace works - very few people “doctor” livestock today. But IMHO as one who values history, when altered as such they’re no longer “cattle knives”. JMO
Ken
Now I think I need more cattle knives. Fantastic old pattern.
Ok, that answers something else I was wondering. Why did some stockman knives have a pen blade instead of a spay blade? After all, if they were used for the intended purpose, I just assumed the spay would be better. Some stockman knives i have seen have a clip, sheepsfoot, and pen blade. And if they were used for the intended purpose on a cow, I was thinking that a spay blade would be better. But if they both do the same job just as well, I see now why the pen blade was put on some of them. And no doubt back then there would have been a lot of discussions which served the purpose better. If only my knives could talk and tell their tales and what they have seen!Colonel26 wrote:I’m with you Ken on the wharncliff. I just don’t think it’d be right on a “cattle” knife. Clip/Spear are both useful at the barn or in the shop, so is a punch blade. I’m a sheepsfoot fan, and it’s probably the the blade i use the most. It I think a spey or a pen is necessary. Both can be used for the “surgery” as they share the same general shape, just a difference in amount of belly mainly.Mumbleypeg wrote:It’s always interesting to read threads like this and see the different perspectives. Levine says the cattle knife was developed in the 1870s, designed for working on and around livestock. Therefore the blades would have served a useful purpose for the knife’s users at the time. In those days there were no knife collectors. People bought knives as tools to be used, so the buyers of cattle knives would be looking for a knife having blades they found useful. Thus the reason most cattle knives have either a spear or clip master, a spay secondary, and either a sheepfoot, pen, or punch for the other secondary.
As we collectors get farther and farther from the dates when the various patterns originated, the historical circumstances of their origins become lost or secondary. The cattle knife is a good example. It seems for many collectors the cattle knife has become known and identified by its shape alone, with little or no concern for what blades it has.
As patterns evolve to please the tastes of today’s buyers, cutlery makers might indeed put Wharcliffe or various other blades into an equal-end knife, to suit the tastes and uses of current day buyers. That’s how the marketplace works - very few people “doctor” livestock today. But IMHO as one who values history, when altered as such they’re no longer “cattle knives”. JMO
Ken
Now I think I need more cattle knives. Fantastic old pattern.
Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
A spey lets you make a much more precise cut. But a pen will definitely work.John Wright wrote:Colonel26 wrote:I’m with you Ken on the wharncliff. I just don’t think it’d be right on a “cattle” knife. Clip/Spear are both useful at the barn or in the shop, so is a punch blade. I’m a sheepsfoot fan, and it’s probably the the blade i use the most. It I think a spey or a pen is necessary. Both can be used for the “surgery” as they share the same general shape, just a difference in amount of belly mainly.Mumbleypeg wrote:It’s always interesting to read threads like this and see the different perspectives. Levine says the cattle knife was developed in the 1870s, designed for working on and around livestock. Therefore the blades would have served a useful purpose for the knife’s users at the time. In those days there were no knife collectors. People bought knives as tools to be used, so the buyers of cattle knives would be looking for a knife having blades they found useful. Thus the reason most cattle knives have either a spear or clip master, a spay secondary, and either a sheepfoot, pen, or punch for the other secondary.
As we collectors get farther and farther from the dates when the various patterns originated, the historical circumstances of their origins become lost or secondary. The cattle knife is a good example. It seems for many collectors the cattle knife has become known and identified by its shape alone, with little or no concern for what blades it has.
As patterns evolve to please the tastes of today’s buyers, cutlery makers might indeed put Wharcliffe or various other blades into an equal-end knife, to suit the tastes and uses of current day buyers. That’s how the marketplace works - very few people “doctor” livestock today. But IMHO as one who values history, when altered as such they’re no longer “cattle knives”. JMO
Ken
Now I think I need more cattle knives. Fantastic old pattern.Ok, that answers something else I was wondering. Why did some stockman knives have a pen blade instead of a spay blade? After all, if they were used for the intended purpose, I just assumed the spay would be better. Some stockman knives i have seen have a clip, sheepsfoot, and pen blade. And if they were used for the intended purpose on a cow, I was thinking that a spay blade would be better. But if they both do the same job just as well, I see now why the pen blade was put on some of them. And no doubt back then there would have been a lot of discussions which served the purpose better. If only my knives could talk and tell their tales and what they have seen!Colonel26 wrote:I’m with you Ken on the wharncliff. I just don’t think it’d be right on a “cattle” knife. Clip/Spear are both useful at the barn or in the shop, so is a punch blade. I’m a sheepsfoot fan, and it’s probably the the blade i use the most. It I think a spey or a pen is necessary. Both can be used for the “surgery” as they share the same general shape, just a difference in amount of belly mainly.Mumbleypeg wrote:It’s always interesting to read threads like this and see the different perspectives. Levine says the cattle knife was developed in the 1870s, designed for working on and around livestock. Therefore the blades would have served a useful purpose for the knife’s users at the time. In those days there were no knife collectors. People bought knives as tools to be used, so the buyers of cattle knives would be looking for a knife having blades they found useful. Thus the reason most cattle knives have either a spear or clip master, a spay secondary, and either a sheepfoot, pen, or punch for the other secondary.
As we collectors get farther and farther from the dates when the various patterns originated, the historical circumstances of their origins become lost or secondary. The cattle knife is a good example. It seems for many collectors the cattle knife has become known and identified by its shape alone, with little or no concern for what blades it has.
As patterns evolve to please the tastes of today’s buyers, cutlery makers might indeed put Wharcliffe or various other blades into an equal-end knife, to suit the tastes and uses of current day buyers. That’s how the marketplace works - very few people “doctor” livestock today. But IMHO as one who values history, when altered as such they’re no longer “cattle knives”. JMO
Ken
Now I think I need more cattle knives. Fantastic old pattern.
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
Would we really want to hear every knife's story?John Wright wrote:If only my knives could talk and tell their tales and what they have seen!
Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
Tsar Bomba wrote:Would we really want to hear every knife's story?John Wright wrote:If only my knives could talk and tell their tales and what they have seen!
And just to add fuel to the fire ....
is it spey or is it spay ?? ??
Chris
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i woke last night to the sound of thunder
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started humming a song from nineteen sixty two
aint it funny how the night moves
Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
Makes me want a big ol plate of rooster fries!Tsar Bomba wrote:Would we really want to hear every knife's story?John Wright wrote:If only my knives could talk and tell their tales and what they have seen!
Chris I’ve always seen spey. I don’t know which is right. But I have always wondered why the teen spey was used for this particular blade when it ain’t exactly speying we use it for.....
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
I have always spelled it spey, and so does the schrade cut catalogs so that's good enough for me.royal0014 wrote:And just to add fuel to the fire ....
is it spey or is it spay ?? ??
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
I’ve always spelled it spey. I’ve seen it spelled both ways. For whatever reason, when I type spey, the spell check feature (with which I have a love/hate relationship ) tries to change it to spay.
The dictionary says the word “spay” originates from the Greek word spathe which means “broad blade”. I don’t find “spey” in the dictionary, which shows how little I know.
On a Trapper pattern the long blade with the same shape cutting edge, also usually called a spey blade, was typically used for skinning animals without penetrating the “cavity”. On a stockman or cattle knife it was used for castration. In both cases the blade is designed for precise slicing without puncturing or deep penetration. I suppose other blades like a pen can be adapted to the same purpose, but a pen is more pointed and therefore more likely to puncture or unintentionally cut or nick where not wanted. Stabbing the critter you’re working on is not considered good form!
And I agree with Wade. Spay is the term used for neutering female animals, so how it came to be applied to a blade named for castrations is confusing.
Ken
The dictionary says the word “spay” originates from the Greek word spathe which means “broad blade”. I don’t find “spey” in the dictionary, which shows how little I know.
On a Trapper pattern the long blade with the same shape cutting edge, also usually called a spey blade, was typically used for skinning animals without penetrating the “cavity”. On a stockman or cattle knife it was used for castration. In both cases the blade is designed for precise slicing without puncturing or deep penetration. I suppose other blades like a pen can be adapted to the same purpose, but a pen is more pointed and therefore more likely to puncture or unintentionally cut or nick where not wanted. Stabbing the critter you’re working on is not considered good form!
And I agree with Wade. Spay is the term used for neutering female animals, so how it came to be applied to a blade named for castrations is confusing.
Ken
Member AKTI, TSRA, NRA.
If your religion requires that you hate someone, you need a new religion.
When the people fear their government, that is tyranny. When government fears the people, that is freedom.
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If your religion requires that you hate someone, you need a new religion.
When the people fear their government, that is tyranny. When government fears the people, that is freedom.
https://www.akti.org/
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
I don't know which way is correct either, and I have seen it spelled both ways. From now on, I think I will just refer to it as the "For Flesh Only" blade.Mumbleypeg wrote:I’ve always spelled it spey. I’ve seen it spelled both ways. For whatever reason, when I type spey, the spell check feature (with which I have a love/hate relationship ) tries to change it to spay.
The dictionary says the word “spay” originates from the Greek word spathe which means “broad blade”. I don’t find “spey” in the dictionary, which shows how little I know.
On a Trapper pattern the long blade with the same shape cutting edge, also usually called a spey blade, was typically used for skinning animals without penetrating the “cavity”. On a stockman or cattle knife it was used for castration. In both cases the blade is designed for precise slicing without puncturing or deep penetration. I suppose other blades like a pen can be adapted to the same purpose, but a pen is more pointed and therefore more likely to puncture or unintentionally cut or nick where not wanted. Stabbing the critter you’re working on is not considered good form!
And I agree with Wade. Spay is the term used for neutering female animals, so how it came to be applied to a blade named for castrations is confusing.
Ken
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Re: Pen Blades on Cattle Knives
I don't know which way is correct either, and I have seen it spelled both ways. From now on, I think I will just refer to it as the "For Flesh Only" blade.Mumbleypeg wrote:I’ve always spelled it spey. I’ve seen it spelled both ways. For whatever reason, when I type spey, the spell check feature (with which I have a love/hate relationship ) tries to change it to spay.
The dictionary says the word “spay” originates from the Greek word spathe which means “broad blade”. I don’t find “spey” in the dictionary, which shows how little I know.
On a Trapper pattern the long blade with the same shape cutting edge, also usually called a spey blade, was typically used for skinning animals without penetrating the “cavity”. On a stockman or cattle knife it was used for castration. In both cases the blade is designed for precise slicing without puncturing or deep penetration. I suppose other blades like a pen can be adapted to the same purpose, but a pen is more pointed and therefore more likely to puncture or unintentionally cut or nick where not wanted. Stabbing the critter you’re working on is not considered good form!
And I agree with Wade. Spay is the term used for neutering female animals, so how it came to be applied to a blade named for castrations is confusing.
Ken