TL-29 Information overload....
TL-29 Information overload....
I found this single line, block letters CAMILLUS over NEW YORK over USA , Tl-29 at an antique shop. For a couple of bucks i have had hours of thread searching fun.... now I wish to get confirmation of my findings. I suspect that I have made some errors. I usually do.
Is this a 1960-1976 TL-29? Are the scales bakolite? It has TL-29 melted into the front scale. Does that make it military issue?
The number of scale, pivot and spring pins lead me to conclude it is in the middle of the Camillus production.
Any and all information welcome.
JV
The line drawing is from another thread. I don’t know who to credit... but thanks.
Is this a 1960-1976 TL-29? Are the scales bakolite? It has TL-29 melted into the front scale. Does that make it military issue?
The number of scale, pivot and spring pins lead me to conclude it is in the middle of the Camillus production.
Any and all information welcome.
JV
The line drawing is from another thread. I don’t know who to credit... but thanks.
Empty vessels make the most noise...
Re: TL-29 Information overload....
IMHO this is the 50s-60s
Re: TL-29 Information overload....
TL-29 is the military designation, yes it is military issue.
The handles are Rogers Board, not bakelite.
Vit's dating is as good as any, imho.
The handles are Rogers Board, not bakelite.
Vit's dating is as good as any, imho.
Dale
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Re: TL-29 Information overload....
I have a TL-29 that was issued to me new in 1974 while stationed in Germany. The stamp on the blade is the same. The only difference is the scales on mine are not stamped TL-29. I tend to think mine was made 1960-76 time period.
Perception is Reality
Re: TL-29 Information overload....
Sincerely, I thank you all for the information.
I now know that the scales are Rogers Board. The age... 1950s, 60s or as much as 1976. The TL-29 stamp makes it military, but AR Norby was issued a non-stamped version with the same number of pins and inset bail placement while serving in Germany in 1974.?!
Nailing down the details of an old folder is not unlike sweeping ants, as soon as you think you have everything in order, they all crawl away!
Thanks again,
JV
I now know that the scales are Rogers Board. The age... 1950s, 60s or as much as 1976. The TL-29 stamp makes it military, but AR Norby was issued a non-stamped version with the same number of pins and inset bail placement while serving in Germany in 1974.?!
Nailing down the details of an old folder is not unlike sweeping ants, as soon as you think you have everything in order, they all crawl away!
Thanks again,
JV
Empty vessels make the most noise...
- Tsar Bomba
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Re: TL-29 Information overload....
Dating most Camilluses by the stamp alone is a fruitless pursuit. Camillus reused stamps, blades with old stamps, etc. throughout their history. You can get a better idea of the knife's age by noting the extra pin for the bail (the newer ~70s and later #27s and TL-29s used the handle pin on the barehead end to secure the bail as well - both civvie and mil-issued). The profile of the screwdriver/stripper blade dates it a little older than that, too, IIRC.
I believe Vit is about as accurate as we can get given the photos and the TL-29 handle stamping. Definitely no earlier than the '50s, my wartime and post-war TL-29s with the same handle stamping are all wood (ebony, I think). I think '50s-60s is a fine estimate on that knife.
This thread is the first I've heard of "Rogers Board" btw. I'm gonna have to do some reading about Rogers's laminate business now. Good find on the blueprint, too, that kind of stuff is always valued because of the added dimension it lends to the hobby.
I believe Vit is about as accurate as we can get given the photos and the TL-29 handle stamping. Definitely no earlier than the '50s, my wartime and post-war TL-29s with the same handle stamping are all wood (ebony, I think). I think '50s-60s is a fine estimate on that knife.
This thread is the first I've heard of "Rogers Board" btw. I'm gonna have to do some reading about Rogers's laminate business now. Good find on the blueprint, too, that kind of stuff is always valued because of the added dimension it lends to the hobby.
Everything's better with a Barlow
Re: TL-29 Information overload....
Tom Williams told me about Roger's board. Incidentally it was not made by the same company that made Roger's bone.
It was a different company entirely and a different material.
Tony,
Somewhere here on AAPK I have posted a lot of blueprints of Camillus knives. I believe there are blueprints of a number TL-29s, probably in the TL-29
thread.
Tom sent me a bunch of Camillus blueprints, I think I have posted most of them here and Larry Vickery has posted them on Collectors of Camillus I believe.
It was a different company entirely and a different material.
Tony,
Somewhere here on AAPK I have posted a lot of blueprints of Camillus knives. I believe there are blueprints of a number TL-29s, probably in the TL-29
thread.
Tom sent me a bunch of Camillus blueprints, I think I have posted most of them here and Larry Vickery has posted them on Collectors of Camillus I believe.
Dale
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Re: TL-29 Information overload....
Lets do some process of elimination.
Using the Camillus catalogs, we know that they used Rosewood handles until at least 1965. And we know that at least by 1973 they had changed to synthetic handles. And we know they changed the bail swing pin location between 1976 and 1977. It's already been established that the knife is military issue and this information gets you within about ten years which is pretty doggone good for Camillus.
Using the Camillus catalogs, we know that they used Rosewood handles until at least 1965. And we know that at least by 1973 they had changed to synthetic handles. And we know they changed the bail swing pin location between 1976 and 1977. It's already been established that the knife is military issue and this information gets you within about ten years which is pretty doggone good for Camillus.
Forged on the anvil of discipline.
The Few. The Proud.
Jerry D.
This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012
The Few. The Proud.
Jerry D.
This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012
Re: TL-29 Information overload....
Remark: For the civilian version (#27)jerryd6818 wrote:Using the Camillus catalogs, we know that they used Rosewood handles until at least 1965.
Re: TL-29 Information overload....
I think the changes in the civilian knives are the probably driven by the change in the military knives. If you are making small changes to a pattern, something has to drive the change given the cost involved to retool.
I believe it is likely those changes were mandated by military contracts. I think the changes to the civilian electrician knife, #27, were driven by government contractual changes to the TL-29.
I believe it is likely those changes were mandated by military contracts. I think the changes to the civilian electrician knife, #27, were driven by government contractual changes to the TL-29.
Dale
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Re: TL-29 Information overload....
Regarding pattern changes, I agree. But from the 50s to the 90s, different materials were used for #27 and TL-29 (MIL-K-13419).
By the way, there was another version - Camco 229, which was a civilian copy of TL-29. And in 1950 it already had a plastic handle .
By the way, there was another version - Camco 229, which was a civilian copy of TL-29. And in 1950 it already had a plastic handle .
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Re: TL-29 Information overload....
This is why AAPK is the best, bar none!
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Re: TL-29 Information overload....
I freely admit to knowing zero about the TL-29. So - does the above mean that if you see a Camillus TL-29 with Walnut (or any wood besides Rosewood) handles that the knife has been rehandled?jerryd6818 wrote:Lets do some process of elimination.
Using the Camillus catalogs, we know that they used Rosewood handles until at least 1965.
"The Luggage had a straightforward way of dealing with things between it and its intended destination: it ignored them." -Terry Pratchett
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Re: TL-29 Information overload....
TwoFlowersLuggage wrote:I freely admit to knowing zero about the TL-29. So - does the above mean that if you see a Camillus TL-29 with Walnut (or any wood besides Rosewood) handles that the knife has been rehandled?jerryd6818 wrote:Lets do some process of elimination.
Using the Camillus catalogs, we know that they used Rosewood handles until at least 1965.
Forged on the anvil of discipline.
The Few. The Proud.
Jerry D.
This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012
The Few. The Proud.
Jerry D.
This country has become more about sub-groups than about it's unity as a nation.
"The #72 pattern has got to be pretty close to the perfect knife."
--T.J. Murphy 2012
Re: TL-29 Information overload....
No, it could have been made for the civilian market and not the military. If it has the TL-29 stamped on the handle then it is military. I have never seen a military Camillus TL-29 with wooden handles with the TL-29 stamp on any sort of wood handle other than Rosewood. Keep in mind however that Rosewood is one of the largest families of tropical Hardwoods. Rosewood can look like other types of wood.
Dale
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Re: TL-29 Information overload....
Well, I asked because of this knife in an AAPK store: https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/ca ... ilus-tl-29
"The Luggage had a straightforward way of dealing with things between it and its intended destination: it ignored them." -Terry Pratchett
Re: TL-29 Information overload....
I think that's the case where rosewood has been miss identified as walnut. It looks to me like cocobolo, which is member of the rosewood family commonly used for knife handles.
The 1946 catalog list the #27 electrician's knife and says it has rosewood handles.
The 1965 Camillus catalog also list the #27 as having rosewood handles.
I don't believe Camillus made the electricians knife for the military with any wood other than rosewood. They may have used a different wood the handle all in SFO, like Sears or Wards, but I don't believe they did so with any military contract knives. The DOD contracts I usually pretty specific.
The 1946 catalog list the #27 electrician's knife and says it has rosewood handles.
The 1965 Camillus catalog also list the #27 as having rosewood handles.
I don't believe Camillus made the electricians knife for the military with any wood other than rosewood. They may have used a different wood the handle all in SFO, like Sears or Wards, but I don't believe they did so with any military contract knives. The DOD contracts I usually pretty specific.
Dale
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Re: TL-29 Information overload....
Here is a copy the specifications for the TL-29 as of October 27, 1943. Notice under the specifications that it refers back to the 1938 specifications which supersede the specifications for 1935.
This S card was the information the factory workers used to put together the knives, and told them what blades to put in the knife, how to face the blades what liners to use what tang stamps to use etc. it was quite specific.
I have often heard people say, and have probably even said it myself, that sometimes people would grab an old stamp and make a batch of knives with an old tang stamp. Indeed, Tom Williams himself told me that, however I don't think that was as common as some people think it was. If you look carefully at this S card for this order of TL-29s you will notice it is very specific, including the stamp to be used on the handle. If the workers followed the S card tang stamps would be correct.
Notice this order from 1952 is using Rogers board for the handle material.
Here is the back of this S card which gives additional information; some were stamped and some were not stamped.
Now in my previous post I stated that the 1946 catalog and the 1965 catalog both list the #27 electrician's knife as having rosewood handles. But now we see as early as 1952 there were military orders using Rogers board handles.
I also recall Tom telling me that Rogers board was also used on the Barlows for a while. I basically later on both the #27 and the #51, Barlow, both had Delrin handles. Exactly when the change came, I am not sure.
This S card was the information the factory workers used to put together the knives, and told them what blades to put in the knife, how to face the blades what liners to use what tang stamps to use etc. it was quite specific.
I have often heard people say, and have probably even said it myself, that sometimes people would grab an old stamp and make a batch of knives with an old tang stamp. Indeed, Tom Williams himself told me that, however I don't think that was as common as some people think it was. If you look carefully at this S card for this order of TL-29s you will notice it is very specific, including the stamp to be used on the handle. If the workers followed the S card tang stamps would be correct.
Notice this order from 1952 is using Rogers board for the handle material.
Here is the back of this S card which gives additional information; some were stamped and some were not stamped.
Now in my previous post I stated that the 1946 catalog and the 1965 catalog both list the #27 electrician's knife as having rosewood handles. But now we see as early as 1952 there were military orders using Rogers board handles.
I also recall Tom telling me that Rogers board was also used on the Barlows for a while. I basically later on both the #27 and the #51, Barlow, both had Delrin handles. Exactly when the change came, I am not sure.
Dale
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Re: TL-29 Information overload....
........dale, what is "roger's board" and what does it look like????......... ...............
- carrmillus
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Re: TL-29 Information overload....
.......answered my own question by looking back at the first post!!!!............. ............................
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Re: TL-29 Information overload....
Awesome - thanks Dale!
"The Luggage had a straightforward way of dealing with things between it and its intended destination: it ignored them." -Terry Pratchett