Elephant Ivory Handles

[QTCut5]

Federal Badge Shield is a salesman's sample Vulcan T. Ellin & Co., Sheffield, England, c. 1846-1944
Closed Length = 3.5"

Bar Shield is a Ford & Medley, Sheffield, England, c. 1872-1930
Closed Length = 3.25"

Thanks for looking.
~Q~

[kootenay joe]

And thank you for showing the markings. Both are Sheffield with maker's mark not merchant. I have a few Sheffield ivory pen knives that look very similar. My guess is that they are most likely from the time between WW I & WW II, and closer to WW I.
I have other Sheffield ivory pen knives with yellowish ivory & i think these are older.
Do you agree that your two are likely from sometime after WW I ?
kj

[QTCut5]

And thank you for showing the markings. Both are Sheffield with maker's mark not merchant. I have a few Sheffield ivory pen knives that look very similar. My guess is that they are most likely from the time between WW I & WW II, and closer to WW I.
I have other Sheffield ivory pen knives with yellowish ivory & i think these are older.
Do you agree that your two are likely from sometime after WW I ?
kj

You're welcome...I love showing my knives to an appreciative audience, it's my pleasure.

Regarding their actual age or specific year of manufacture I would defer to your best judgement, KJ, since these are my first real 'vintage' or antique knives (definitely the oldest knives in my collection), and you are an expert or, at the very least, a highly respected collector with a lot of knowledge and experience. In the interest of gaining more knowledge myself on the issue of dating vintage knives, I am curious as to what specific things you see in these two that would suggest a date of manufacture as post- WWI (after 1918) as opposed to pre-WWI (before 1914)? Other than simply their overall condition, and the makers' marks instead of the merchants' as you pointed out, I haven't a clue.

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

Q thank you for your kind words but really i know very little of what is a huge body of knowledge that "knives" encompass.
My thought that your knives are from soon after WW I is a guess based on their overall appearance, not on any specific feature or marking. And i could be quite wrong.
When i have the time i will get out a few ivory Sheffield knives of differing ages and post pictures here.
The manufacture of knives in Sheffield from about 1830 to WW I produced the finest knives ever made up to & including the present.
WW I depleted Britain of a lot of money & 'personal energy'. During WW I cutlery manufacturers switched to making military knives and then afterwards had to get back to making pocket knives for civilians. The supply of young men to work in the factories had been severely depleted by WW I so there were fewer to learn the trade and replace those who died or retired. The net result was a gradual decline in the quality of workmanship such that by end of WW II Sheffield was not longer the center for fine cutlery manufacture.
There were still a great many fine knives made in Sheffield between WWI & WW II but the real zenith for Sheffield occurred before WW I.
kj

[kootenay joe]

Here are 4 Queen made knives with either elephant ivory or mammoth ivory, likely from 1990's or very early 2000's. Two are branded "Northwoods" and were made for Dave Shirley. Canoe is 3 5/8"; Baby Sunfish is 3 1/2"
In pictures showing all 4 knives, the center 2 are elephant ivory and the top & bottom ones are mammoth ivory.
kj

[QTCut5]

Great looking knives, kj...museum quality show pieces.
I was watching (not bidding on) that Northwoods ext. ivory canoe (2nd down from top) on eBay recently...I was surprised, as I expect you were as well, at the price it sold for; WoW! you totally stole that one, my friend (I noticed that the same seller currently has another one listed for a BIN price that is over four times what you paid for yours). Congratulations, it could not have gone to someone more deserving. And what a beautiful addition to an already stunning collection!

I am curious about your evaluation of the overall quality of Queen made Northwoods compared to GEC made Northwoods. Personally, I feel that although the handle materials used by both companies is top shelf, the GEC made knives are generally higher quality construction--fit & finish, walk & talk and a certain hard-to-define "feel". It seems I am not alone in this assessment as it is not unusual to see the Queen made Northwoods sell for substantially less on eBay than their GEC cousins. In addition to your ivory canoe, I recently watched a beautiful Queen made Northwoods stag whittler barely reach $100 final sale price--I can't recall the last time I saw any pattern GEC Northwoods in stag, and much less ivory, sell for anywhere near that low. Is GEC so much better than Queen or has Queen so tarnished its reputation from years of inconsistent quality and producing enough sub-par products that people just don't trust the brand enough to pay top dollar for its products? Obviously Queen can and does make some superior knives (I know because I have several), but its general production quality, especially under the Schatt & Morgan banner (which is supposedly Queen's flagship line), is all too often a risky game of hit-or-miss Russian roulette.

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

Quote: " has Queen so tarnished its reputation from years of inconsistent quality and producing enough sub-par products that people just don't trust the brand enough to pay top dollar for its products"
Yes, i think this is the situation. It is interesting how the knives from each manufacturer have an 'energy' or feel that is unique to each brand. As such the Queen knives do give off a different 'atmosphere' or 'presence' than do the GEC knives, but the overall quality of build is now quite close. I say "now" because the Queen made knives i have marked "DFK" (Daniels Family Knife) and made in the last 2 years are better than the Queens made during the 10-15 years prior. That said these 2 Queen made Northwoods are from at least 10 years ago and they are nicely made.
Queen has (or certainly had) some very fine stag & other handle materials so in general their handles are very nice. The blade grinds are still a bit thicker than those of GEC and the edges are 'sharp-ish' whereas many GEC's are 'fairly sharp'. Of the 4 Queen knives with a total of 8 blades, all have good W & T and zero blade play; i.e. absolutely no issues with blade action.
Given the lower prices, many of the Queen knives are a pleasing knife, and a very good deal. The average price i paid for the above 4 Queen knives is ~ $165. The quality of the ivory and the mammoth is high which is what gives these knives value.
kj

[Tsar Bomba]

It seems I am not alone in this assessment as it is not unusual to see the Queen made Northwoods sell for substantially less on eBay than their GEC cousins.

What I wouldn't give for this to be true of the Everyday Barlow...

@Q & kj: Absolutely stunning display of ol' pachyderm-toof knives, gents. I always enjoy a humbling moment every so often when I realize that my piddling little accumulation isn't worth the time it took to gather in comparison to some of the museums folks around here must have. Keep 'em comin (and when you get tired of 'em put 'em up for sale on AAPK!)

[BWT]

I don't expect either of these two will be exposed to any blood -- unless I accidentally cut myself while opening or closing the blades...which are very sharp with original factory edges and have relatively stiff springs.

PB240015.JPGPB240029.JPGPB240025.JPG

~Q~

Thanks for sharing your knives, really nice, I enjoy older knives and those are looking good, thanks.

[QTCut5]

some of the museums folks around here must have. Keep 'em comin (and when you get tired of 'em put 'em up for sale on AAPK!)

I'm flattered that you would consider my modest collection to be in the same universe as kootenay joe's...if only! His ivory collection is the Smithsonian compared to my humble little folding card table weekend local county fair display. Nevertheless, even as a small-time collector of ivory knives, it's highly unlikely I'll ever get tired of them or put any of mine up for sale. Fortunately, there are still a few purveyors of fine ivory knives who are willing and able to supply ivory junkies like myself with 'product' to continue feeding the addiction. There are enough ivory knives currently for sale right here on AAPK, both vintage and modern, to get other potential ivory addicts hooked. So, come join the party...one small purchase won't hurt (and you can quit anytime you want ).

Check out Sanders Knives AAPK store for vintage pre-ban E. ivory:
https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/ca ... k=2&page=2

Plumbob has some very nice modern mammoth ivory offerings by Schatt & Morgan:
https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/ca ... C&path=618

Keith's Classics & Frank's Classic Knives also have a wide variety of modern mammoth ivory knives.

Happy shopping...and don't worry about missing a mortgage payment on your house, ivory is totally worth it and surely the bank will understand (besides, it takes a long time to actually evict someone and repossess their home--in the meantime, you can sell some of your "lesser" knives to cover the cost).

~Q~

[Tsar Bomba]

I've been watching Plumbob's mammoth knives. I just don't know if I can justify the price right now...

[kootenay joe]

T.B., i agree with you about the prices for some mammoth handled knives being 'too high'. Some are more than the price of a custom made knife by one of numerous excellent knife makers. Even with the strong interest in mammoth handled knives, the $500 ones are not being purchased even though they have been listed for months.
I believe i another 1-2 years prices for mammoth handled knives will have settled down to a price that buyers will see as good value.
kj

[QTCut5]

In some cases the high price tag is as much or more a reflection of the 'rarity' of a knife as well. Surely a model that is one of only two ever made is worth significantly more than a knife that is one of even a relatively short production run like 25 or 30, regardless of the handle material. It is essentially a factory custom which is why the price is similar to a custom. The fact that it also has very nice mammoth ivory handle scales only increases the value that much more.

BTW--Plumbob will negotiate on prices. I got both of the mammoth ivory knives I bought from him for substantially less than the advertised price. There's no rule against asking for a lower price or making a reasonable offer. Many dealers automatically overprice knives to maximize profit potential which allows them to have some degree of wiggle room to negotiate, especially on high priced knives that have been listed for a long time without selling. It never hurts to ask.

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

"In some cases the high price tag is as much or more a reflection of the 'rarity' of a knife as well. Surely a model that is one of only two ever made is worth significantly more than a knife that is one of even a relatively short production run like 25 or 30, regardless of the handle material. "

I don't think it works quite this way. I don't buy a knife because it is say, "1 of 2 made". I buy a knife because it speaks to me but am not willing to pay extra for it because of a short run.
It is supply and demand but whether 35 were made or 2, that is still a very limited supply.
Only some sellers are asking $500 or higher for production knives with mammoth handles and these seem to be not selling or if selling, then slowly. Mammoth handled knives priced under $400 seem to be selling but unless a GEC they don't get 'snapped up'.
kj

[QTCut5]

I don't buy a knife because it is say, "1 of 2 made". I buy a knife because it speaks to me but am not willing to pay extra for it because of a short run.

That's where we may differ. Although, like you, I don't buy a knife simply because it's rare, if I see a knife I want, i.e., one that speaks to me, that also happens to be "rare" (say, 1 of 2), I am more inclined to pay a higher price for it because I realize I probably won't have another opportunity to buy one. With a regular production knife like from Case or GEC, however, I know that if I don't get the first or second one I find, chances are pretty good that another one will show up for sale eventually. But, obviously that's not as much of a given with a (genuinely) limited production knife; so, that increases it's value to me (value = the amount I am willing to pay...not some intrinsic amount ostensibly inherent in the knife itself...which I do not believe knives possess anyway). A limited supply definitely affects the value of anything, especially collectibles.

In my experience, many people (not all people, obviously) are willing to pay more for a production knife that is somehow more "rare" or unique whether that's due to a limited supply or some other factor. Knives labeled "Prototype," for example, tend to sell for a higher price than the same model knife from a production run of otherwise identical knives. Same is also true of serial numbered knives; lower serial numbers tend to fetch higher prices for some reason. For me, personally, prototype labels and serial numbers (or absurd, so-called "limited" runs of 3000, like Case sometimes does) have never been a relevant factor in my decision to purchase a knife and/or how much I am willing to pay for it. But, if very few knives of a particular type I want were ever made, I will pay more to get one if and when it is available.

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

Knives that were made in very low numbers can result from the manufacturer wanting to use up the last few pieces of a certain handle material. The low number produced does not make the knife desirable. However if a knife is already one that is sought after and it is produced in very low numbers, then there can be higher value due to the few available.
As to serial numbers and "prototype", most experienced collectors are not influenced at all by these things. What does influence collectors is the specific knife itself. Is it a fine example with zero issues ? If so then it is a desirable knife whether the serial # is 50 or 5000.
I am willing to pay a higher amount for a knife that is 'right on' in all regards. "Prototype", low serial # not important; good 'right on' knife is important

[QTCut5]

If I understand correctly, you're saying that you won't buy a knife simply because it is rare. However, you would pay a higher price for a knife you want ("that is 'right on' in all regards") if it were rare (i.e., relatively few in existence) because the rarity ("few number available") adds value to the knife (as compared to a knife that is common or not rare).

I agree with that. That is what I meant when I said, "I don't buy a knife simply because it's rare, if I see a knife I want, i.e., one that speaks to me, that also happens to be "rare" (say, 1 of 2), I am more inclined to pay a higher price for it."
"The low number produced does not make a knife desirable." True, but it does make a knife more valuable. And, I believe the higher value is reflected in the asking prices, thus my observation: "In some cases the high price tag is as much or more a reflection of the 'rarity' of a knife as well."

Although rarity may very well be a deciding factor for some collectors (a lot of people like the idea of exclusive ownership), I don't select a particular knife to buy based on the number that were made or how desirable it may be to others (there are plenty of people who only want something because it's desired by many other people or "popular" which is what creates the phenomenon known as a "fad"). However, I will pay more for a knife that I want if it is "rare" (meaning very few were produced and/or are hard to find for sale). I believe that is generally true of most collectors (of anything); the more rare an item you collect is, the more you are willing to pay for it. The more that people are willing to pay for an item (demand), the higher the asking price will be for that item. Economics 101.

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

I once made a knife. I am not a skilled craftsman so the knife is not very good. But, it is RARE, only 1 knife in existence made by KJ. Do you think this is valuable ? The answer is: NO, because it is not a well made knife. Rarity alone does not give value. This is a point that BRL often made back when he was active on line.
kj

[QTCut5]

I once made a knife. I am not a skilled craftsman so the knife is not very good. But, it is RARE, only 1 knife in existence made by KJ. Do you think this is valuable ? The answer is: NO, because it is not a well made knife. Rarity alone does not give value. This is a point that BRL often made back when he was active on line.
kj

I agree with you 100%. If a knife is not well made, as you said, then it would not be a knife that I want because it's unlikely that a poorly made knife would speak to me, so it wouldn't matter that it was rare and it's doubtful that it would fetch a high price were you to sell it. The fact that a knife is rare does not make it inherently valuable and does not alone justify a high asking price. My claim that the high price of many of Plumbob's mammoth knives was a reflection of their rarity, carried with it an unstated assumption that the knives were of sufficient quality to be desirable by collectors on other merits besides rarity. I did not mean to suggest that the rarity alone was the single redeeming quality of those particular knives and was the sole reason for the high asking prices. Nor was I making a generalization about the value of all limited production knives being justifiably higher based solely on the lower number available. I would think it's fairly obvious that a poorly made knife is not worth a premium price regardless of how rare it is. But, perhaps I should have stated that assumption when I made my observation. I apologize if that caused any confusion. Thank you for clearing that up.

~Q~

[Ivoryman]

Glenngood, I mean Glennbad modded Copperlock

[kootenay joe]

Nice looking knife !
kj

[ObsidianEdge]

Great pictures in this thread. I've wanted a vintage ivory knife for years but wasn't able to get one until late this year.

[BWT]

Very nice, looks like it was worth the wait.

[Ivoryman]

Fabulous Ulster ObsidianEdge. Beautiful ivory, that's a looker. Congrats. Nothing feels like ivory either.

[galvanic1882]

One of the best knives on the site in my opinion!!!