Elephant Ivory Handles

[kootenay joe]

Q, i agree with what you post above. I think the outcome will be (or already is), that knife manufacturers will longer offer ivory handles. Most custom makers if they already have some ivory, will use it at customer's request but are unlikely to post for sale a new ivory handled knife.
As i understand it mammoth ivory is legal but can be hard to differentiate from elephant ivory without cutting a thin section for microscopic examination.
What is the status of knives with ivory handles made from 1976 to the present ? Presumably without correct documentation that the ivory was obtained prior to 1976, these knives are no longer legal to sell, trade or give away, BUT, are legal to own.
If you understand this 'mess' differently please post.
kj

[QTCut5]

Been awhile since we've added some new ivory to this thread. Here's my pack of ivory Bulldogs with it's newest member, the one with the oldest ivory.

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

Good idea to revitalize this thread. Here is my most recent acquisition: a 3 1/4", 16 blade ivory Barrel knife. This knife was presented in a thread here at AAPK while still an active ebay listing. Barrel knives i think originated in Sheffield before 1850 as a way to show the cutler's skill.
The usual Barrel knife has 8 blades. This one has 16 blades and is the only one i have seen with more than 8 blades. However the condition is rather rough with 6 blades being broken off. My pictures only show the slot with all 4 blades present.
At the center of each ivory piece there is a hollow pin something i have not seen before. Might this be a clue as to date when it was made ?
If you know anything about Barrel knives in general or this one in specific, please post. I would love to learn anything about this special old warrior of a knife.
kj

[QTCut5]

Wow, KJ...that is a very cool and interesting piece. You never cease to amaze with what you have in your vast collection. Great stuff, love seeing it.

What is the status of knives with ivory handles made from 1976 to the present ? Presumably without correct documentation that the ivory was obtained prior to 1976, these knives are no longer legal to sell, trade or give away, BUT, are legal to own. If you understand this 'mess' differently please post.
kj

Just re-read your Aug. 14 post and I believe you are correct with regard to the illegality of transfer of ownership through sale or trade, not sure about giving it away, though, as I believe there may be an allowance for inherited ivory from wills and estates, etc. As far as simple ownership of "legal" (pre-ban) ivory, although somewhat unlikely, you may still run into legal hassles if you transport your own ivory across state lines (such as when moving your residence to a different state, or going to or returning from a knife show, etc.). There was an incident in which a musical performance group (band or orchestra of some type) had certain musical instruments containing ivory parts seized by over-zealous government agents while traveling around the country on a national tour. I remember reading about this, but now I can't seem to locate my source. As I recall, they eventually got their instruments returned, but not without a lot of hassle involving lawyers and disruption of their tour schedule, venue reservations, ticket refunds, etc. I'll keep digging to see if I can locate the source where I read about that. Maybe somebody else read the same news story and can help find it; it was about a year ago, or maybe two, when I first read it. But, the bottom line is that the ivory ban has indeed created a legal mess for a lot of otherwise law-abiding, honest citizens. Although, it's still available for purchase on eBay from time to time (as long as do-gooder informants don't see it and squeal to the Gestapo).

~Q~

[orvet]

Congratulations Roland.
I’m glad someone from AAPK got that old knife. It certainly has a great deal of historical appeal!

[Ivoryman]

Very cool and funky piece KJ. Never seen anything like it, must be rare and few out there. Great show.
I just put elephant scales on this one a few days ago. The newest elephant in the very small herd. Came from a piece of tusk that was near the very top, where the hollow is for the root so it was an arched piece I had to grind down a lot to make it a flat slab suitable for the thick scales on this Lionsteel Barlow. As a result the grain came out different on both scales, but still looks decent because of the color match. But it feels great even if the grain doesn't match. Nothing feels like ivory.

[kootenay joe]

Nice work Ivoryman. I like how you have radiused the edges. Makes for a better looking and better in hand feel than leaving them square. It amazes me how many knife makers do not radius the edges of ivory into a graceful curve.
kj

[PCwizard]

Wow, KJ...that is a very cool and interesting piece. You never cease to amaze with what you have in your vast collection. Great stuff, love seeing it.

What is the status of knives with ivory handles made from 1976 to the present ? Presumably without correct documentation that the ivory was obtained prior to 1976, these knives are no longer legal to sell, trade or give away, BUT, are legal to own. If you understand this 'mess' differently please post.
kj

Just re-read your Aug. 14 post and I believe you are correct with regard to the illegality of transfer of ownership through sale or trade, not sure about giving it away, though, as I believe there may be an allowance for inherited ivory from wills and estates, etc. As far as simple ownership of "legal" (pre-ban) ivory, although somewhat unlikely, you may still run into legal hassles if you transport your own ivory across state lines (such as when moving your residence to a different state, or going to or returning from a knife show, etc.). There was an incident in which a musical performance group (band or orchestra of some type) had certain musical instruments containing ivory parts seized by over-zealous government agents while traveling around the country on a national tour. I remember reading about this, but now I can't seem to locate my source. As I recall, they eventually got their instruments returned, but not without a lot of hassle involving lawyers and disruption of their tour schedule, venue reservations, ticket refunds, etc. I'll keep digging to see if I can locate the source where I read about that. Maybe somebody else read the same news story and can help find it; it was about a year ago, or maybe two, when I first read it. But, the bottom line is that the ivory ban has indeed created a legal mess for a lot of otherwise law-abiding, honest citizens. Although, it's still available for purchase on eBay from time to time (as long as do-gooder informants don't see it and squeal to the Gestapo).

~Q~

Q is this the news article your talking about. "musical instruments seized'

https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertai ... 2b9138a77a

[QTCut5]

Thanks Gary. That's not the exact article, but it does reference the incident I remembered reading about: The Budapest Festival Orchestra having some bows confiscated when entering the US for a tour in 2014. There was also another incident involving some bagpipes being brought across the US/Canadian border. The point being that even if you are the legal owner of any ivory (pre-ban or otherwise), if you can't prove the age of your ivory any time a government agent requests it, chances are it will be confiscated. In other words, you're automatically considered guilty unless you can prove you're innocent.

~Q~

[gino]

2011 GEC 73 rehandled in 2012

[edge213]

Very nice gino.

[jerryd6818]

i.e., associate it with elephant poaching that supports terrorist organizations,
~Q~

I said years ago that to get any law passed or rule laid down, all you had to do was connect it to children or safety (all you have to do is say it, not prove it). And if you could show, even tangentially, that it was related to the safety of children it would be a slam dunk. It looks like now, whether true or not, we can add "terrorism" to that list.

[QTCut5]

i.e., associate it with elephant poaching that supports terrorist organizations,
~Q~

I said years ago that to get any law passed or rule laid down, all you had to do was connect it to children or safety (all you have to do is say it, not prove it). And if you could show, even tangentially, that it was related to the safety of children it would be a slam dunk. It looks like now, whether true or not, we can add "terrorism" to that list.

True dat...with the caveat that whether or not the law gets passed has a lot to do with how much it personally affects the ones in power and the corporate owners/shareholders pulling their strings. In the case of ivory, it has virtually zero affect on any significant power holders/brokers, so they'll let the activists have that win since banning ivory won't even register a blip on the stock market radar and it has the added bonus of making it look like they're actually "fighting" terrorism. You know what else supports terrorism? and to a degree that dwarfs the illegal ivory trade? ...Oil. But, don't expect to see any bans on oil imports from the mid east anytime soon.

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

Here is my re-handled GEC with elephant ivory, by the very skilled "Muskrat Man"; model # 721110.
kj

[edge213]

KJ, that one is beautiful. Great job Muskrat.

[kootenay joe]

Yes, thank you. The ivory when seen in person is really top grade and Caleb's work is masterful. He was already doing excellent work when he was only 17. Now he is a master of knives. He deserves to be on everyone's list of 'Knife maker/restorers'.
kj

[Old Hunter]

Just read on a hunting site that President Trump has rescinded the restrictions on legally taken trophies. Don't know if that is real or "fake news". OH

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politi ... ts-n821331

[QTCut5]

I believe this is another muskrat man mod. I picked it up in a swap with big monk some time ago.

~Q~

[Ivoryman]

Wow that's beautiful KJ, great looking ivory. Q that's a great looker too. Very nice men. Hat tip to Muskrat Man too.

[kootenay joe]

Neat, here we have 3 # 73 pattern knives that have been re-handled with ivory. The 73 is a great size( ~ 3 3/4") and a great single blade knife and it seems people like to get their favorite handle material on it.
kj

[mrwatch]

without digging into it I believe that you now have to prove the ivory is over 100 years old. also may be illegal to sell over some state lines. Read buying or selling at antique shows and I have heard talk at a show about Bear claws. As per Trump's new change is only for tusks taken in two country's in 2017 and I read heads for taxidermy mounts. I have sold at and attended many antique shows over the years and have not seen or heard of any officers checking dealers booths including a few of the largest ones in Chicago. Just my writings and your millage may very.

[QTCut5]

Neat, here we have 3 # 73 pattern knives that have been re-handled with ivory. The 73 is a great size( ~ 3 3/4") and a great single blade knife and it seems people like to get their favorite handle material on it.
kj

Actually, koot, mine is a Northfield pattern #23 at 4 1/2" closed length. Unless you have some kind of reference for size comparison, the #23 and the #73 can be difficult to tell apart.

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

Sorry, i made an assumption. 73 or 23, both are well suited to ivory or mammoth covers. Now we need someone to use one of these to field dress a deer and report back as to how slippery (or not) the ivory becomes when coated with some blood or fat. Skin oils over time deepen the yellow hues in ivory. Does blood affect the color of ivory ?
kj

[QTCut5]

I don't expect either of these two will be exposed to any blood -- unless I accidentally cut myself while opening or closing the blades...which are very sharp with original factory edges and have relatively stiff springs.

~Q~

[kootenay joe]

Q, what are the markings on those lovely sleeveboard pens ? What is their age ?
I have not seen anything like tang markings on secondary blade, knife with bar shield.
kj