The view fron Northern California

[Stakeknife]

Lots of devastation. Entire neighborhoods wiped out. As I'm typing this two more towns are being threatened and evacuated, Calistoga and Geyserville. Hundreds of thousands of acres are burnt, 15 dead and more by the time it's all over. 3000 structures burnt to the ground so far and that number will go higher. Lots wineries gone or damaged. Multi million dollar homes, ranches, hotels, resorts, parks, farms, family estates. The towns are like looking at a war zone. 14 or so fires are 0 % contained and they are saying it could take two weeks to get the fires under control. The smoke here is so thick you can taste it. I've lived in Northern CA for 40 plus years and seen lots of bad fires, but nothing like this.

[Stakeknife]

Just heard from some friends in the Napa area and they say that the roads are so crowded with people evacuating it takes hours to go a few miles. Gas stations are running low on fuel, some stations have run out of gas and only hsve diesel.

[Mumbleypeg]

I'm very sorry to hear about this. We've been seeing reports on the news here for the past few days. Such a beautiful area. Prayers for all the people being affected, and for those fighting the fires. Stay safe!

Ken

[stagman]

Been seeing the film on Fox 10 Phoenix news here in Arizona...just a bad, bad,
situation...I feel for all of ya for sure...some shots in whole neighbor hoods look
like an atomic bomb went off !!!
The best to all of you in Cali who are affected by this disaster

Stag
http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/stagman

[bestgear]

Thanks for the update Ed. I saw on the evening news last night a postal truck delivering mail to mailboxes where there are NO HOMES IN THE ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOOD! Devastating for sure.

[Stakeknife]

Now 26 dead, 469 remain missing, 3500 building destroyed. 21 fires still burning,191,000 acres. Nearly 4000 people are at 24 evacuation centers and the majority are unlikely to go home for many days.

[kootenay joe]

Why are these fires so much more intense than previous California fires ? I know there was a 4 yr drought but i thought that ended about 1 year ago.
Are conditions drier than ever before ?
Are the homes that have burned relatively new ones that have been built at the upper end of valleys, leaving the occupants trapped by fire below ?
We had severe fires beginning 2 months earlier than normal in B.C. Over 40,000 homes were evacuated some for as long as 6-8 weeks. The intensity of these fires had not been seen here before. The reasons are very dry conditions and a many months of unusually hot dry weather.
It looks like climate change is bringing fires of great intensity to various parts of the world. Australia & Malaysia have had huge devastating fires as well as here in North America.
I think this is just the beginning and what is happening now in California will be repeated many times over.
kj

[treefarmer]

If y'all think back a few years, Florida had a terrible wildfire incident on the East coast over around Daytona Beach. One of the biggest contributors to the fire was determined to be the attitude of the environmentalists, "Thou shall not mess with the forest." Nature has a way of protecting it's self by wild fires started by lightening strikes. Man immediately stops these fires, the forest floor continues to fill its' tender box and over the years there is the inevitable fire that can not be easily controlled.
Controlled burns have protected properties for years, they provide fresh browse for the critters, they remove the build up of the volatile natural debris that collects under the trees. I just read an article that mentioned the State of California had outlawed controlled burns about 15 years ago. They didn't want smoke in the valleys and now that have smoke and destruction in the valleys.
On a personal note, we try to have a controlled burn on our property every 3 years. In 5 or 6 years enough pine straw and other debris will build up and fuel a fire that will go to the tops of 50' tall pines, causing a crown fire which is devastating. Some trees survive and some are killed by the intense heat generated by the junk that could have been removed by a controlled burn.
Apparently the folks on the left coast haven't learned this common sense approach to eliminate wild fires.
Treefarmer

[zzyzzogeton]

Treefarmer hit the nail on the head.

Natural burns occur in, well, nature. Happened all the time before man started imposing his beliefs of what is best for the land. Sorry, nature is always gonna get it right, as opposed to man who screws things up on a regular basis.

Burns remove arboreal detritus - dead leaves, fallen branches, dead shrubs, over-thick copses of undersized trees, grass build-ups. The seeds of many plant species actually require fire in order to germinate. Burning converts the dead junk into wood ash, which is acidic, pH of 4.0 to 6.0. This helps neutralize soils when they become akaline over time with calcium build up from rock deterioration (slow process in some areas).

Wildfires are also part of the natural control of animal populations. Wlldfires take out critters. Small/shortlegged animals cannot out run fast moving wildfires. Some survive in burrow, others in areas that escape the "current" burn. Lack of prey causes predator populations to drop. And the cycle begins again as the prey creatures re-establish populations.

"Naturists", "treehuggers", naturalists (not the ones who study nature, but the ones who want no changes at all) scream bloody murder when the US Forestry Service or the Corps of Engineers or the US Geological Services tries to conduct controlled burns to remove this fuel load. They don't want to see burned lands, just "green".

Take central Texas for example - the treehuggers got their way with banning the cutting of "cedar trees", aka Ashe Junipers as they are the source of cedar bark used in nesting habitat for Black-capped Vireos and Golden Cheeked Warblers , 2 birds that got put on the endangered species list.

Ranchers were not allowed to clear brush during brush clearing season, i.e, the spring when it is cool enough to work outside because they might disturb the birds in their nests. Burns were not allowed, etc.... Ranchers and farmers tried to tell folks this wasn't right, leaving all the cedar trees growing. The pre-man "natural" way of cedar control was lightning strike fires burning excess copses of cedar trees and buffalo herds trampling things flat. The buffalo herds were already gone, but ranchers were keeping the cedars in check with cutting, burning and bulldozing cedars out. Nope, you can't do that anymore.

Well, the cedar population exploded. All of a sudden, everything was collapsing. ALL bird species numbers dropped. Critter populations went down. Deer populations tanks.

Why???

Well, Cedars don't like competition. They put out allelopathic chemicals that prevents other plants from growing in their vicinity. Their shed needles blanket the ground preventing grasses and weeds and wildflowers from growing. Guess what the critters eat - it damn sure isn't cedar needles, cedar bark or cedar berries (some bird eat the berries). Reduced ground cover leads to erosion, which leads to fewer plants.

The government is now conducting burns on their stolen property. Cedar clearing is being allowed, oh but really only for developers who are building houses in the middle of all the wildfire fuel. Talk about your wildland/urban interfaces fires waiting to happen.

When my parents bought their home near Lake Travis, the ranch land around them had lush grass and few trees other than large oaks. 35 years later, the grass is gone, replaced by acres of dense cedar brush. The once 8" to 12" of fertile black dirt was gone. Where had it gone? Into Lake Travis. When I first took up SCUBA diving in 1975, the max depth of the lake (when at the "full" level of 681' AMSL) in the cove in front of the house was 54 feet. In 2002, 27 years later, the max depth was down to 43 feet.

Joe, you're right in that we are going to see more fires like this in the future. But the reason has nothing to do with whether climate change is real or not. It will happen because in the end, nature always wins.

[kootenay joe]

Climate change is absolutely 100% real. There is ZERO disagreement from the scientific community anywhere worldwide.
There is a powerful lobby by fossil fuel companies to convince gullible people into believing otherwise so that they can squeeze as many dollars as possible into their coffers before the shift to alternate energy sources takes over.
The intensity of hurricanes hitting USA in the last few years is but one consequence of fossil fuel 'over-use'. The drought conditions in California, worst since recording keeping began about 150 years ago, is another.
Unfortunately i think "we ain't seen nothing yet".
kj

[Paladin]

Climate change is absolutely 100% real. There is ZERO disagreement from the scientific community anywhere worldwide.
There is a powerful lobby by fossil fuel companies to convince gullible people into believing otherwise so that they can squeeze as many dollars as possible into their coffers before the shift to alternate energy sources takes over.
The intensity of hurricanes hitting USA in the last few years is but one consequence of fossil fuel 'over-use'. The drought conditions in California, worst since recording keeping began about 150 years ago, is another.
Unfortunately i think "we ain't seen nothing yet".
kj

Well, well, you sure know how to push the buttons. By using the term 'climate change' are you including the global hoax called 'global warming'? Our climate has been changing over the years since the beginning of time. It is part of life. Global warming is a hoax dreamed up by a bunch of pinko frauds out to make a profit.
And by the way, hurricanes are no worse in intensity now nor are they any more frequent than they have ever been.

Ray

[americanedgetech]

If y'all think back a few years, Florida had a terrible wildfire incident on the East coast over around Daytona Beach. One of the biggest contributors to the fire was determined to be the attitude of the environmentalists, "Thou shall not mess with the forest." Nature has a way of protecting it's self by wild fires started by lightening strikes. Man immediately stops these fires, the forest floor continues to fill its' tender box and over the years there is the inevitable fire that can not be easily controlled.
Controlled burns have protected properties for years, they provide fresh browse for the critters, they remove the build up of the volatile natural debris that collects under the trees. I just read an article that mentioned the State of California had outlawed controlled burns about 15 years ago. They didn't want smoke in the valleys and now that have smoke and destruction in the valleys.
On a personal note, we try to have a controlled burn on our property every 3 years. In 5 or 6 years enough pine straw and other debris will build up and fuel a fire that will go to the tops of 50' tall pines, causing a crown fire which is devastating. Some trees survive and some are killed by the intense heat generated by the junk that could have been removed by a controlled burn.
Apparently the folks on the left coast haven't learned this common sense approach to eliminate wild fires.
Treefarmer

We have verry different woodland structures here TF.
The "woods" here (Florida) are like diesel tanks.
We have plants that left alone are like bombs waiting to blow. Lighter, Palmettos, everything waxy in the plant kingdom lives here.
I get the fact that what you do is what I am talking out my butt about... just because of your location, and your user name... I KNOW you are THE person to talk to about this. NO disrespect! I would love to hear more about what you know, and learn from your input.

What I "think" is the fires we had up north are not as hot but far more continuous. It was more of a hardwood/charcoal type fire than the fueled fires in the south. I "think" this relates to Cali. Plus we (Florida) have 90% humidity/wet wind all the time.

Then you have topography... Winds flow up hill with heat. Those cooler winds contain a LOT more oxygen, and will fuel a fire WAY more than flat land fires. We have flat lands, and Cali has fueling winds.
Forge vs BBQ?

Your point on controlled burn is factual. I learned this in a few years here. Cali, actually can not control burn because they have people everywhere, Get out of LA, and the hills are FULL of old hippie camps, homesteads that people will not surrender, sheep, cattle, whatever... It's not the same as the "forgotten coast". They have people in the way of controlled burns while we do not.

100% respect sir!


Ohhhh. Climate Change!!!! I'll start a thread on that! I LOVE that topic

[kootenay joe]

"hurricanes are no worse in intensity now"
The wind speeds recorded in hurricanes in USA last 2 years have been experienced before but not so many intense storms in such a short period of time.
kj

[americanedgetech]

I have a post that may bring something to light. "Global warming! OUR opinions".

This planet has been changing from day one, and WE have the audacity to believe that we control it.
We only notice what is happening!

[kootenay joe]

Nobody is claiming to "control" climate. 250 years of fossil fuel burning is one factor affecting climate.
kj

[jerryd6818]

(Hmm. Now how did this thread shift focus from the tragedy of the California wild fires to planet climate change?)

Just the facts ma'am. Once one accepts the historical facts of this planets cycle of constant climate change, one begins to see that man's micro-second time here and his puny effects on the planet are infinitesimal at best.

Human beings are the cockroaches of the planet. We tear up and ruin everything we touch under the guise of making it better. I guess to some extent we do; for us. We are an arrogant creature.

[americanedgetech]

I could not have said one word better!

[RobesonsRme.com]

No offense Roland, but to categorically state, "Climate change is absolutely 100% real. There is ZERO disagreement from the scientific community anywhere worldwide.", borders on the ludicrous. There is significant disagreement with the theory of "Global Warming" or "Climate Change" as it relates to man's causative factors or even to its existence at all and a great amount of that disagreement comes from some very learned and respected scientists.

I suggest you broaden your reading, because valid alternative opinions are published or referred to frequently.

Here is a primer, made up of articles posted on just one website, Powerlineblog.com, founded and authored by three previously liberal, now conservative, attorneys in Minnesota. All three graduated from Dartmouth. They have recently been joined by conservative Steve Hayward, a Berkeley professor.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/?s=global+ ... &x=16&y=12

Charlie Noyes

[RobesonsRme.com]

The fires in Northern California have been terrible with vast loss of property and lives. God Bless everyone involved.

I read yesterday that the home of Charles Schultz in Santa Rosa has been completely destroyed. Everything was lost. All the memorabilia and artwork. His wife, fortunately, was able to escape the fire.

Charlie Noyes

[americanedgetech]

Charlie,
I think the point behind Roland's post is that man is not the sole causative factor in the measured climate change we are experiencing.
This current cycle was happening anyway no matter what we did.
I do agree that man has added to the effect but we did not cause it.

The nay sayers are more on the conspiracy theory side of this discussion. Most of their argument comes down to the US is pushing this idea (global warming) in an effort to slow the world wide consumption of resources so that there is more for us.
The people that are NOT on the conspiracy wagon, and that are saying climate change is a "hoax" are generally lobbying for the fuel/chemical industries.

These cycles have repeated since the birth of our wobbly planet.

As for Cali. I am having a difficult time comprehending that shear scale of the devastation. It is simply hard to believe that nothing can be done to even slow this down.
Just keep praying for them.

[kootenay joe]

The "alternate press" is big oil mis-leading as many people as they can to prolong their money pipeline.
Global warming, aka climate change, is underway and is being accelerated by the billions of tons of fossil fuel we have burned in the last ~ 250 years.
Scientists from every country in the world meet annually to share data on climate. There is No Disagreement in the scientific community anywhere, world-wide. The few "scientists" offering an opposing view are the same as the MD's who said smoking did not cause lung disease or lung cancer in the 1950's & 60's. Big oil, Big Tobacco.
To make matters worse we have over populated the globe and de-forested most of it. Trees sequester carbon and give off oxygen so while we pump ever more carbon into the atmosphere there are ever fewer trees to take it out.
Sea level is rising. There already are some small low lying So. Pacific islands that now get covered with a tide surge. No one can live there anymore. This could be coming to nearly every major city worldwide for most are ocean ports so are at our historic sea level.
kj

[espn77]

Stakeknife, I appreciate you keeping us informed of how the fires are effecting you guys out there. I used to live up by Mt Shasta, I know first hand how bad fires can be. My sister still lives up there. Praying for your safety.

[MITCH RAPP]

You know living in California my whole life, I have become accustomed to Earthquakes and Forrest Fires but I got to say I have never seen anything like the Death and Devastation of these Northern California Fires in my life!