Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

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58chevy348
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Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by 58chevy348 »

Just curious. Obviously, a factory second means something didn't pass final inspection on a knife, so the company either ground off the tang stamping or pitted it with a drill. In your opinion, how greatly does this affect the value of a knife? If the tang is still partly / mostly legible as in the examples below?
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by just bob »

I have been looking at some of these and wonder if they weren't marked that way to denote a counterfeit knife in some cases. That way the knife couldn't be bought/sold without a very close examination. I have seen counterfeit Morgan dollars that were marked with punches. I have also seen some counterstamp coins that were used as a type of token. Back before 1950 a knife was sold as a tool and cosmetic type blemishes wouldn't result in a knife being called a second. The knife would have had to have been almost inoperable to be considered a second and if that were the case I don't think the knife would have ever left the factory. Only my opinion. I'm interested in what others with more experience have to say on the subject. Good post!
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by peanut740 »

If it's the same guy,he has several fakes listed on Ebay has factory seconds.All marked the same way.I emailed him,he did nothing. ::td::
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by americanedgetech »

Assuming the knife does not pass QC at the factory, why would they mark it, and release it? That makes no sense unless it is a way to remove it from warranty availability.
Still the question remains, why release it.

Counterfeit markers make no sense as well. Say the factory received a warranty knife that was a counterfeit... I can see them refusing service but either destroying or deforming another persons property would never fly in our country (USA).

So I will venture my own guess that these "factory marked" knives were meant for export ONLY. The factory receives a tax write off, and the knives are to be sold overseas.
What happens after that is anyones guess. The knives may never make it out of the US due to any number of reasons. My first assumption would be any person along the chain of custody wanting to make a fast buck on the underground market.

Just my personal theory... ::shrug::
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by just bob »

The knife wasn't marked at the factory as a counterfeit. It was marked by a conscience collector when he spotted the fact that it was fake and marked it so no one would get duped on it. It coud still used to be used to whittle with or cut baling twine so there was no point in destroying the knife. There are clear factory 2nd knives in the 1970's and after where the tang stamp has been ground off at the factory. These knives did not have a warranty and were clearly marked so they weren't mistaken for a first quality knife.
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by espn77 »

The Remington knives he had where not good.
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by americanedgetech »

Not good as in fakes?

Just Bob... I'm still curious as to why a factory would grind the tang, and still release the knife into the main market.
Your explanation of the drilling aspect I accept as more likely

Do you believe export could have been a factor in the tang grinding or is that just day dreaming?
I can't see any manufacturer releasing anything they deem as sub par. If it has no warranty then why release it? Especially a knife...

I hope I am not confusing the thread but I think my questions fit.
Only used once comes to mind...
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by just bob »

I'm pretty sure I'm right in saying that Case sold factory 2nd knives in their gift shop to visitors of their facility? Can't remember where I read that, but feel certain it is true. The reason they did it is simple - to make money. Whay scrap a useful item? Here is the only modern example I can find.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1977-FACTORY-SE ... 7675.l2557
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by just bob »

should be gift shop - sorry
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by edge213 »

Cold Steel sold seconds. GEC sold seconds as EDC. I'm sure others do as well.
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by hardman »

Interesting topic.

I am most familiar with Case knives. Here is what I have been told. Historically, Case did not sell factory seconds. If a knife failed QC, it was destroyed or scavenged for parts. In the very late 1980's and very early 1990's, Case became very cash strapped. So much so, they tried to turn everything into cash. That led to them selling factory seconds for a short time. They were identified as such by stamping one or more often two "X" on the tang very near the tang stamp. Or, they sometimes ground out the tang stamp. All were sold without warranty. The practice was dicontinued after an ownership change or two.

As to value, when anything is scarce, it can become sought after. When demand exceeds supply, prices reflect that. That is to say that I have seen an actual market centered on Case factory seconds. With prices rivaling and sometimes exceeding standard production knives. I have a couple Case factory seconds, and it is hard (but not impossible) to see the flaw that got them classified as seconds.
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by Dinadan »

I guess the effect on value will depend a lot on the age and overall collectability of the knife. Certainly it will lower the value. I have one knife that I assume is a factory second, a Schrade. The only defect I can find is a tiny pin crack, and the ugly X stamp on the tang. Everything else about the knife is as good or better (mostly better) than any of my other Schrades.
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by americanedgetech »

Lets say fit, and finish did not meet standards.
I CAN see re-stamping, and selling as a sub name brand. GEC/EDC is a good example.

Cash strapped? I don't really know.
Take other industries as an example. Everything from Air Conditioners to Pharmaceuticals have sub standard products. They are not destroyed because they are inventoried as Export Inventory, and sold overseas at a reported loss. That "loss" is used as a tax break. They get credit on lost profit. Even more so when they "donate" those products to another underdeveloped country.

T shirts. The Cowboys are playing the Jets for the super bowl championship... Jets win but Haynes has 10 million T shirts already printed that say Dallas "Champs".
Those T's end up in Africa, Jamaica, the Philippines, or countless other countries as "donations" bearing a HUGE tax break.

Why would Knifes be different?
Destroying them is a total loss, Scavenging them is logical but selling them, and offering no warranty makes no sense unless they were so close to free that the buyer would not care.
Then you have the issue of new buyers thinking all XYZ knives are junk based solely on the junker he has in hand.

I truly ::shrug:: do not understand this.
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by espn77 »

IMHO the Remington knives this guy was selling are fake. Marks made on the blades in someone's garage with a drill press. It's interesting that he had 4 or 5 different manufacturers with the same "2nd" marks on the blades. Cobbled up junk.
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by Tsar Bomba »

I personally own confirmed factory seconds from Buck, Case, Queen, Schrade, GEC, and Camillus. Not one is a counterfeit. They're out there. In the case of the Buck and Queens they were boxed, clearly represented as seconds (either by stamping, etching, ground tang, labelling on packaging, or a combination of these), given no or reduced warranty service, and sent out the door at a discounted price. I always assumed it was because factories produce things to make money and that's one way to turn a marginal product that meets usability standards but perhaps not aesthetic ones into more capital.

I will say a couple of the seconds, including the GEC, are (or were before use) so flawless upon inspection that I could not make any determination as to the cause of the "seconding". It's actually an interesting little subgenre of the hobby IMO. If I can get away with a reasonable price I will often consider a factory second if it ticks any other boxes I'm looking to check off.

Regarding the OP Case Bros. knife, I am unfamiliar with that "drill bit tip" marking but by my logic that would seem to be more of an aftermarket marking than anything from the factory, considering the kind of tooling a larger cutler would be using.
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by peanut740 »

One of the Remington fakes is a Robeson Carpenters Choice.It is a 3 blade cigar with slick black handles and the "Carpenters Choice" etch.Tangs had been shaved and stamped with Remington stamp.All 3 tangs had drill marks put in them to notify people that they are FAKES.Sad thing is someone took a close to $200 vintage knife and a EDC out of it.
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by 58chevy348 »

Wow! Thanks for all of the input. This is a topic I've wondered about for quite a while. As far as counterfeit is concerned--I guess one would need to examine such a knife closely to look for other "tell-tale" signs the knife could be fake. I have a couple of obviously fake Case knives--stainless blades on a mint looking knife with early Case Bradford standings. Low quality as well. This one does not have x outs or ground tang stamps.

Do any of you own any pocket knives with these drilled marks on the tang? (Case or any other brands).
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by edge213 »

americanedgetech wrote:Lets say fit, and finish did not meet standards.
I CAN see re-stamping, and selling as a sub name brand. GEC/EDC is a good example.

Cash strapped? I don't really know.
Take other industries as an example. Everything from Air Conditioners to Pharmaceuticals have sub standard products. They are not destroyed because they are inventoried as Export Inventory, and sold overseas at a reported loss. That "loss" is used as a tax break. They get credit on lost profit. Even more so when they "donate" those products to another underdeveloped country.

T shirts. The Cowboys are playing the Jets for the super bowl championship... Jets win but Haynes has 10 million T shirts already printed that say Dallas "Champs".
Those T's end up in Africa, Jamaica, the Philippines, or countless other countries as "donations" bearing a HUGE tax break.

Why would Knifes be different?
Destroying them is a total loss, Scavenging them is logical but selling them, and offering no warranty makes no sense unless they were so close to free that the buyer would not care.
Then you have the issue of new buyers thinking all XYZ knives are junk based solely on the junker he has in hand.

I truly ::shrug:: do not understand this.
It really doesn't matter if you understand this or even accept this, but the fact is KNIFE manufacturers have and do sell seconds.
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by robbobus »

I bought a Queen as new in box, first quality off an ePrey retailer. When I received it, the shield was loose in the box. I haven't the time to recount the obvious flaws. It would be dangerous to use this piece of junk. Junk actually takes offence at being lumped in with this Queen. I made a short video of it, its on Youtube -
https://youtu.be/AyW6atQCFig

I sent it off to Queen, 6 months later it returned with a note, from the owner of Queen, saying it was a "factory second". No tang mark, no EDC etch (could have been removed by the retailer perhaps). They reglued the originally pinned shield in as "a good faith gesture". This knife is not a 2nd. Its a dangerous piece of garbage that should have been destroyed and recycled. All Queen's "good faith" gesture did was ensure I will purchase not one knife with their mark made after 2007 or so going forward.

I also notice they are making alot of parts knives from old stock from the Bill Howard era. These knivea aren't finished to anywhere near the standards pre '07. Case in point: a large eBay retailer has recently been listing what appears to be Queen Dan Burke doctor knife collaborations. A full array of photos is offered but none are of the coined/scalloped liner, nor isthe liner mentioned in the ad copy. I emailed the seller inquiring about the detail and was informed they were not. No mention in the ad to the fact this is not a first run knife. A few years back Queen put out the Sheffield Jack, presumably using parts left over from the Dan Burke English Gentleman knife. Different knives, no mention of Mr.Burke and some toned down differences, including the lack of the coined liner. Not an issue whatsoever because they are different models. Not so with what is currently going on.
20171005_215448_Film4.jpg
There is the 2 different/same knives. The older pearl model is head and shoulders a superior product in every respect.

GEC on the other hand, their 2nds are usually a somewhat inconsequential or cosmetic or imagined flaw. I have only 2, marked permanently but fully useable. Same goes with Mr. AG Russell's seconds. I have several of those and I absolutely cannot find a fault in any - even with a first quality knife beside.

What does my rambling post mean? Buyer beware. There are new knives which should be seconds sold as first quality. Some companies are not interested in putting out a quality product consistently, protecting their reputation, or respecting the money collectors have previously invested in their products. Its too bad.
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by americanedgetech »

edge213 wrote:
I truly ::shrug:: do not understand this.
It really doesn't matter if you understand this or even accept this, but the fact is KNIFE manufacturers have and do sell seconds.[/quote]

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Just replace "Knife" with "Shoes", and I could swear my 2nd EX wrote that!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
No offense meant. I'm laughing for real.

Tsar Bomba wrote:I personally own confirmed factory seconds from Buck, Case, Queen, Schrade, GEC, and Camillus. Not one is a counterfeit. They're out there. In the case of the Buck and Queens they were boxed, clearly represented as seconds (either by stamping, etching, ground tang, labelling on packaging, or a combination of these), given no or reduced warranty service, and sent out the door at a discounted price. I always assumed it was because factories produce things to make money and that's one way to turn a marginal product that meets usability standards but perhaps not aesthetic ones into more capital.

I will say a couple of the seconds, including the GEC, are (or were before use) so flawless upon inspection that I could not make any determination as to the cause of the "seconding". It's actually an interesting little subgenre of the hobby IMO. If I can get away with a reasonable price I will often consider a factory second if it ticks any other boxes I'm looking to check off.

Regarding the OP Case Bros. knife, I am unfamiliar with that "drill bit tip" marking but by my logic that would seem to be more of an aftermarket marking than anything from the factory, considering the kind of tooling a larger cutler would be using.
I can handle a reduced or full warranty, and hard to spot defects. That makes sense.

I have a thought on the drill bit markings, and why one fella would have a few of them. The person marking them simply sold or gave the lot away, and of course they end up on FleaBay.
Ok No more thoughts. Brain is leaking... ::ds::
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by Mumbleypeg »

I agree with others that have said the seller in the OP example has numerous fakes for sale. All of those I saw having the drilled mark (seller says they're factory seconds) are counterfeits - "across the room" fakes.

I watch a LOT of knives on eBay, and have for several years. I don't recall ever seeing drill-bit-marked tangs before they showed up recently on this seller's items.

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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by QTCut5 »

I have a couple AG Russell factory seconds...they are perfectly good knives, functional in every way and actually even better quality than some companies' first line products. They are only sold as "seconds" because of cosmetic issues.

Here's an example...notice that the mark side black pearl has a tiny, white bump. The bump is 100% natural, it is not an error or mistake that happened in the production or finishing of the handle scale. But, apparently when it got to QC, that was sufficient cause to be considered inferior to the AG Russell standard. However, rather than waste an otherwise perfectly good knife, they cut a notch in the ricasso and sold it as a factory second. Works for me.
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by orvet »

I can’t speak to the drilled tang stamps being sold on eBay because I have not seen them and don’t know the seller is.
However, I do know a little bit about knives that are seconds. Kershaw is headquartered in Tualatin Oregon. Since the 1980s Kershaw has had a “garage sale” every year. I think they are called factory sales nowadays. I have been to a couple of them over the years and they are a knife lovers dream! They have a lot of overstocked merchandise, some reconditioned merchandise, (as I recall), and a lot of factory seconds. If you look up Kershaw on eBay you will find a lot of the Kershaw’s for sale are factory seconds. The back of the blade is etched with XXX indicating that it is a second and it carries no warranty. I have purchased these knives and for the most part they average person would be hard-pressed to find why that knife was downgraded to a second. One Kershaw second I purchased this year had some very faint impressions in the finish of the knife, caused by a jig they used to hold the knife at some point during the manufacturing process. The knife was marked with the famous XXX indicating that it did not meet Kershaw standards and would not be warranted to if sent to Kershaw.

I am familiar with Schrade and Camillus, as I have studied them for several years. One former Schrade employee told me that Schrade often sold the seconds at a discount to the employees and I believe he said they were sold in the company store also when they were available. Schrade usually marked their blades by grinding the name off the tang stamp or grinding an X or two into the tang stamp.
I have a Schrade Heritage Series X out like the one Mel posted, I think the only difference is the color of the bone. I have not been able to determine why mine was downgraded, and that is typical of Schrade’s seconds. Their quality standards were so high that when something failed to meet quality standards it was still a good knife, I would venture to say better than a lot of what passes for first these days, especially imported knives.

Camillus ground the names from their tang stamps on their seconds also. In regards to Kershaw, Schrade and Camillus knives were downgraded to seconds for cosmetic reasons. They were perfectly acceptable as a knife and as a tool but a really particular collector might find the flaw on that knife. The knife is first and foremost a tool; only in the last few decades have they been collectors’ items. The companies can sell the seconds and recoup some, perhaps all of their manufacturing and labor costs. If there is no warranty on them they have no future liability. They may as well recoup part or all of their material and labor cost. If they break even on a second they are in much better shape than if they write off all costs associated with manufacturing that particular knife.
It’s a win for the customer and a breakeven for the factory.
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by jerryd6818 »

Edit: Oops. Didn't see your post Dale.

Kershaw sells factory seconds. The call them "Blems" and etch the pile side of the blade with XXXX. Most of the time you would be hard pressed to find the "blemish" which caused the knife to be rejected by QC.

Kershaw has an annual factory warehouse sale: This year, it's December 4, 5 & 6 at At their Warehouse: 18600 SW Teton Avenue, Tualatin, OR 97062.

ARE THESE “FACTORY SECONDS”?

Many of them are. There are also overstock items, one-of-a-kind, and few-of-a-kind items. Usually, what makes any of these knives “seconds” are small cosmetic issues—like a tiny scratch or other blemish that only the trained eyes of our quality control inspectors are likely to see. But you will be able to inspect them for yourself and select the ones you want.
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Re: Opinions on "Factory Seconds"

Post by deltaboy »

I got a Western Barlow with a grind mark on tang . I got it at an antique store but I can find nothing wrong with it!
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