NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

The Camillus Cutlery Company was one of the oldest knife manufacturers in the United States with roots dating back to 1876. The company manufactured Camillus branded knives and was a prolific contractor for other knife brands up until its last days in 2007 when the company filed for bankruptcy.
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NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

Post by orvet »

NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

It is a daunting task to chronicle the history of a company that spreads into three different centuries, especially when I am on the opposite side of the country from Camillus New York. I think perhaps a good way to share the bits and pieces of information that I get would be to start a topic dealing with the history of Camillus in the sort of piecemeal fashion (as it often comes to me) from a phone conversation here, an e-mail there and sometimes from printed documents. Later on I hope to organize this into a coherent body of information. But for now I will share the information piecemeal, as I get it.

Yesterday I spoke with Tom Williams briefly on the telephone. For those of you who are new to AAPK, Tom worked for Camillus for 30 years and was the Historian for Camillus Cutlery Company. You might say, Tom has Camillus in his blood. In addition to his 30 years with Camillus, his mother worked for Camillus for over 50 years and retired as a departmental vice president, (if memory serves me right). His uncle worked for Camillus for many years and his father also worked there for a few years. There are few people alive today who know Camillus better than Tom.




Camillus #165 Stockman

The first piece of historical information I have to share has to do with the knife I recently purchased: a Camillus #165 Stockman. This knife is 3 1/4 inches with jigged Delrin handles; the blade is etched with crossed swords and the words RAZOR EDGED STAINLESS. Tom explained that this was one of their best knives and as such had the sword brand etch on the blade and crossed swords on the escutcheon. The liners are brass and the bolsters are nickel silver.
Camillus 165 b.jpg

This knife came in a box with a pocket steel, 3-3/4 inches in length. The artwork on the box insert is red, white and blue. The box is cardboard, colored gold on the outside, with a plastic sleeve that slides over the length of the box holding the knife in place. The color scheme (red, white & blue) are like other Camillus boxes I had seen from the mid-to-late 1970s. Remember the U.S. Bicentennial was in 1976 and red, white & blue was often seen in various venues then.
Camillus 165 a.jpg

One very interesting piece of information that Tom shared with me has to do with the guarantee that was printed on a piece of heavy paper that wrapped around the bottom and one side of the box and was held in place by the plastic sleeve. This piece of paper gave the new owner instructions on "How to Use Your Sword Brand Pocket Steel," and on the left side of the paper was the Camillus guarantee for Sword Brand Knives. It said Camillus would sharpen your knife and keep it in first class condition if you would send it with $1 to cover postage and handling.

You can see this piece of paper in the picture below.
CAm 165 Guarantee.jpg

Now, this is where things get interesting. When Tom started working at Camillus one of his jobs was in the Mail Room receiving the knives that came in for repair or sharpening. He said this guarantee and sharpening service was dropped in the late 1970s or early 1980s. The reason it was dropped? It was too expensive for Camillus to offer the service. Camillus figured it was more cost-effective to give the customer and a brand-new knife than it was to take the used knife down to the line and have one of the workers sharpen it and take it back to the mail room and mail it back to the customer. Someone figured it was cheaper in the long run to just give the customer a new knife each time. Well, like all good things there were a handful of people who abused it, so this practice was discontinued. But if you are fortunate enough to find a Camillus Sword Brand knife that is still in the box and has the guarantee with it, this information may help you date when your knife was made.


I will be posting tidbits of information in this thread as I come across them. Typically these tidbits do not come in any predictable pattern. I may have a lot of things to post in a short period of time and it may be weeks or months until I posted I. But I will try to share these nuggets of information as I get them.

I hope this is helpful to those of you who are a crazy about Camillus knives as I am. :mrgreen:
Please feel free to add your questions and comments and we can all learn more about Camillus knives together.


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Re: NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

Post by orvet »

Camillus #66 Stockman

Camillus #66 Stockman

The Camillus #66 Stockman came up in my most recent conversation with Tom. The 1972 catalog lists the #66 as a Premium Stock Knife, 3-7/8 inches with "grain white handles." I recently found one of these knives so I have included some pictures. The white handles are some type of plastic that is softer than Delrin. Tom wasn't sure what the material was as Camillus had used a number of different plastics for knife handles.
Camillus 66 b.jpg

Tom said there is an interesting story that goes along with the number 66 Premium Stock Knife.
It seems that Francis Ford Coppola made a movie called the Black Stallion. Tom said it's been years since he saw the movie and couldn't remember all the details, and I don't remember it either, but it is a story about a young boy and the Black stallion. At some point in the movie and the horse is tied up, (I think to a sinking ship) and the horse is drug down underwater. The boy jumps in the water, swims down to the horse pulls out his trusty Camillus #66 Premium Stock Knife and cuts the rope, frees the horse, and gives the movie a happy ending.

Some years later the movie production company decided to make a sequel to The Black Stallion so they called Camillus and wanted some #66 Premium Stock Knives. As often happens, that pattern had been discontinued some years before, but Tom said he would see what he could find. He went out into the factory, dug around in some parts bins and found enough parts to make several #66 knives. He sent the knives to the movie production company complements the Camillus Cutlery Company.


Well, now you know as, Paul Harvey used to say, "The rest of the story."


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Re: NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

Post by Miller Bro's »

Very interesting stuff Dale!

I just found this thread, I can`t believe no one else posted here in a month ::shrug::

This is the information I like about knives and the companies that made them.

I will help if I can. Do you know how many different variations of the Camillus stamp was used up to the end of WW II?

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Re: NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

Post by wishful »

Thanks for sharing orvet. I have many Camillus knives, but I don't know a lot about the history of them even though the Camillus factory was only 160 miles from me. Please keep up the great work. ::tu::
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Miller Bro`s wrote:Very interesting stuff Dale!

I just found this thread, I can`t believe no one else posted here in a month ::shrug::

This is the information I like about knives and the companies that made them.

I will help if I can. Do you know how many different variations of the Camillus stamp was used up to the end of WW II?

Dimitri
I am glad you like the thread. I like this sort of historical nuggets too!
I am currently researching Schrade tang stamps and have identified over 20 variations from 1973 to 2004.
This has occupied my time the two weeks I was gone caring for my parents, so I haven't had much time to research the Camillus stamps yet. I am looking at 2-3 surgeries (hand and shoulder) early next year and will be unable to work on knives then, so I plan to work more on the Camillus stamps then. Camillus is one of the hardest companies to date by tang stamp so wish me lick with that. :lol: :lol:
I am currently waiting for more info from Tom Williams. I expect it in the mail any day now.

wishful wrote:Thanks for sharing orvet. I have many Camillus knives, but I don't know a lot about the history of them even though the Camillus factory was only 160 miles from me. Please keep up the great work. ::tu::
I am glad it is helpful. Stick around there will be more coming from several of our members. I didn't know much about Schrade or Camillus until I started collecting and researching them about 6 years ago. Most anyone can do it, it just takes time, patience and lost of research.

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Re: NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

Post by Toejammer »

Just snagged a #66 off the bay for $10, identical to yours. Nice little knife.

I was wondering though, if the handles are considered celluloid or delrin ? Knife hasn't arrived yet, so I can't do the steel wool test.
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Re: NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

Post by orvet »

The catalog in the 1950s said "Grain White Pyroxylia."
Not sure what it is other than some type of plastic.
I think they may have gone to Delrin circa 1961.

I will be anxious to see what you have when it arrives.

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Re: NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

Post by Toejammer »

One of my books mentioned Pyroxylia also, looked it up and it was a Dupont plastic.

Duponts' website: . "Pyroxylin is a generic name for nitrocellulose compounds that form a film when dissolved in a mixture of ether and alcohol, from which plastics can be produced."

Nitrocellulose sounds a little ominous, but they also mention it was used in the automotive industry, so one would think it had to be resilient.

Heres the eBay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... MEWNX%3AIT
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Re: NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

Post by tjmurphy »

Probably used in the old padded dash boards in the '60's and '70's. Remember how they would disintigrate?
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Post by orvet »

Have you ever seen those old steering wheels just crumble and fall apart?
I thought they were celluloid, but maybe some were Pyroxylin.

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Re: NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

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orvet wrote:Have you ever seen those old steering wheels just crumble and fall apart?
I thought they were celluloid, but maybe some were Pyroxylin.

Dale
Yeah, now that you mention it......

They always seemed to crystalize, then shatter. I always thought it was a heat related issue though, like they got too hot and brittle from the sun. Maybe my old mans '58 Plymouth Savoy "gassed out " ! ::shrug::
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Post by orvet »

Toejammer wrote:
orvet wrote:Have you ever seen those old steering wheels just crumble and fall apart?
I thought they were celluloid, but maybe some were Pyroxylin.

Dale
Yeah, now that you mention it......

They always seemed to crystalize, then shatter. I always thought it was a heat related issue though, like they got too hot and brittle from the sun. Maybe my old mans '58 Plymouth Savoy "gassed out " ! ::shrug::

In the case of my dad's car, my siblings & I (who rode in the car with dad) thought it was because dad had "gassed out." :shock: ::dang::
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Re: NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

Post by Toejammer »

orvet wrote:
Toejammer wrote:
orvet wrote:Have you ever seen those old steering wheels just crumble and fall apart?
I thought they were celluloid, but maybe some were Pyroxylin.

Dale
Yeah, now that you mention it......

They always seemed to crystalize, then shatter. I always thought it was a heat related issue though, like they got too hot and brittle from the sun. Maybe my old mans '58 Plymouth Savoy "gassed out " ! ::shrug::

In the case of my dad's car, my siblings & I (who rode in the car with dad) thought it was because dad had "gassed out." :shock: ::dang::
::tu::
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Re: NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

Post by Toejammer »

Here she is, not as purty as yours, but still solid. Main blade closes weak, but everything else walks and talks.

CAMILLUS
_____________
New York
USA

Image

Image

Image
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Re: NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

Post by gringo »

i have the remains of one of these stockman, a SWORD BRAND, STREAMLINER. ithe remains of the scales looked like cracked ice...
a blue/green varnish like residue coats the scale side of what is left of the liners...
it went off like a cell...ate through both outer liners...the springs, blades and center liner are salvagable...
sad ..i will post a photo when i can.
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Post by orvet »

It has been a while since anything has been added to this topic to help in uncovering bits of Camillus history.

Here are three pages I found tucked away in a folder (electronic folder) that were published by Camillus. It was obviously printed after 1991, probably in the mid 1990s would be my guess.

I don't think I have posted them before, but it is possible. ::shrug::

I hope you enjoy them.
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Post by travman »

Thanks for posting those pages Dale
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Post by jerryd6818 »

Dale, I recently acquired a little Camillus #24 with handles of what the 1965 catalog called Nu-Pearl. Since other knives in that catalog have Pyroxylin listed as the handle material, I'm going to guess that's what Nu-Pearl is made of. In a later catalog the name was changed to Sea-Pearl.
Camillus #24 (1965) Small Jack Nu-Pearl scales.JPG
Good Handle Shot.JPG
The knife got me curious as to what Pyroxylin is so I did a little research. I'm no chemist but comparing Pyroxylin and Celluloid, my interpretation of the Wikipedia definition looks like they're saying Pyroxylin is just another variation of what we call celluloid. The difference being nitrocellulose in ether and alcohol for Collodion/Pyroxylin or nitrocellulose and camphor for Celluloid. Base material for both is still GUN COTTON. :shock:

PYROXYLIN
Collodion is a flammable, syrupy solution of pyroxylin (a.k.a. "nitrocellulose", "cellulose nitrate", "flash paper", and "gun cotton") in ether and alcohol. There are two basic types; flexible and non-flexible. The flexible type is often used as a surgical dressing or to hold dressings in place. When painted on the skin, collodion dries to form a flexible cellulose film. While it is initially colorless, it discolors over time. Non-flexible collodion is often used in theatrical make-up.

CELLULOID
Celluloid is the name of a class of compounds created from nitrocellulose and camphor, plus dyes and other agents. Generally regarded to be the first thermoplastic, it was first created as Parkesine in 1862[1] and as Xylonite in 1869, before being registered as Celluloid in 1870. Celluloid is easily molded and shaped, and it was first widely used as an ivory replacement. Celluloid is highly flammable and also easily decomposes, and is no longer widely used. Its most common uses today are in table tennis balls and guitar picks.

The little #24 is not in the best of shape but it's one of my <$5 knives. As you can see from the second picture the blade pivot pin was loose so I practiced my peening on it (The damage you see on the bolster is pre-JerryD. Someone before me had tried to "fix it"). Now it's too tight. ::facepalm:: A couple of the handle pins are pulled out of the liner. I'm thinking about carrying it but I sure like that #33. ::hmm::
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Re: NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

Post by orvet »

You are spot on Jerry! Nu-Pearl & Sea-Pearl are Camillus’ name for pyroxylin. I think they were even registered like Staglon® was the registered trademark of Schrade for DuPont Delrin that was made to look like stag.

I am always mindful when consulting Wikipedia that it is user written, on other words anyone can write an article. I am sure they have some sort of vetting process but I am not sure what exactly it is. So I always try to check what Wikipedia says against other sources. A good source for celluloid info is the Knife World article by Dennis Ellingsen: “Celluloid - a Firm Maybe.” http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/celluloid_02.html

Dennis says ‘Celluloid’ was a brand name for pyroxylin or cellulose dinitrate, like Kleenex is a brand of facial tissues. The term celluloid is what most knife people use to refer to cellulose dinitrate or pyroxylin. The terms seem to be used synonymously at least when it comes to knives.

It is a great article that I refer to often with questions about celluloid. Dennis is a meticulous researcher and a good writer. There was also a recent article in Knife World (in the last 3 or 4 months) on celluloid that I have to study through. I just skimmed it on the first reading. I don’t recall who wrote it, but you might wish to consult it as well.

Nice little #24 you have. 8)
It appears the celluloid has not gone south yet. It may have a lifetime of use left in it! You can loosen the blade by clamping the blade in a vise as close to the bolster as possible, (preferably clamping the tang of the blade), and rocking the knife gently side to side. That and some Quick Release Oil may be all you need to do to have a good user. If you tape up the handle you can sand down just the bolsters then polish them and remove most of the dings in the bolster. A bit of superglue under the handles and a couple minutes in a clamp may make those handles stay down. I have used superglue on celluloid before experimentally and it does not seem to bother it.

A bit of work and it will be nearly as good as new, or good enough for a nice EDC! ::tu::

Nice find for <$5! But I agree, a nice bone handled #33 is pretty hard to beat! ::nod::
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Re: NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

Post by jclarke2152 »

I've just acquired a very nice Camillus Stockman # 66 with white composite scales in great condition... I was hoping someone would know roughly the age of it and if the scales are celluloid or delrin (I want to know if I need to store it away from my other knives).

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

Post by orvet »

::welcome:: Welcome to AAPK!

The handles on your knife are celluloid, a style of celluloid called French Ivory.
It was probably made in the 1960s because in the early 1970s Camillus switched to Delrin handles instead of celluloid.

Nice knife! ::tu::
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Re: NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

Post by tjmurphy »

I really like the French Ivory/Ivoroide handles, and that celluloid seems pretty stable in that i've never seen any of them degraded or out-gassing.
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Re: NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

Post by jclarke2152 »

Thanks gents for your reply... I was kind of hoping in a way it was celluloid (to substantiate the age) but at the same time hope that it doesn't deteriorate in the near future.

I purchased this knife at auction but it was not the main knife I was bidding on, so I was extremely happy to see such a beauty when I unwrapped!

Thanks again.
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Re: NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

Post by smokepole »

Nice surprise - that is a really nice knife!
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Re: NUGGETS OF CAMILLUS HISTORY FOR CAMILLUS ENTHUSIASTS

Post by orvet »

jclarke2152 wrote:Thanks gents for your reply... I was kind of hoping in a way it was celluloid (to substantiate the age) but at the same time hope that it doesn't deteriorate in the near future.

I wouldn't worry too much about it deteriorating. Store it in the open air as, opposed to a close display case, so that any off-gassing may be carried away in the air instead of concentrated around the knife.

Celluloid knives that are stored in closed containers or displays tend to deteriorate much sooner. The French Ivory celluloid seems to be one of the more stable light colors of celluloid. Dark-colored celluloid tends to be the most stable, generally speaking.
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