“Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

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Gtrclktr-351
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“Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by Gtrclktr-351 »

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These are pictures of my Fight’n Rooster Waterfall Cannitler, produced between 1984 and 1992. I recently noticed some discoloration on the shield and back bolsters. Then I found pitting on both the pen and sheepsfoot blades. Does this appear to be “outgassing”, and if so, what can be done about it! Will silica gel packs slow or stop the process? Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by C-WADE7 »

Definitely looks like outgassing, and to my knowledge (not an expert by any means) there is no stopping it. Do not store it around other knives and open air is better than in a box it seems like. Best thing to do in my opinion is to remove the covers and get it recovered by one of the knife mechanics on the forum here.
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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by edge213 »

Definitely outgassing.
C-Wade7 is 100% correct.
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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by Mumbleypeg »

Yes, that is an early sign of outgassing. Once it begins I know of no method to stop it, short of removing the offending covers. Fight’n Roosters and other German-made knives of the past 30-40 years are notorious for outgassing.

Whether they’re worse than older knives from other makers, I couldn’t say. It’s possible we just notice them more because most are in someone’s collection. Whereas a lot of the older ones just self-destructed and no one noticed, or were “used up” and disposed of by their owners. I’ve read the average lifespan of an EDC pocket knife pre-1960’s was around 3 to 4 years. (How they determined that I have no idea, but I wouldn’t argue with it. At that time they were mostly just simple inexpensive tools.)

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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by Ridgegrass »

I googled "Sublimation of celliuloid" and found a very good article from the JAIC (Journal of the American Institute of Conservation). If you have a minimum of chemistry background it will help but reading the whole thing is self explanatory. The URL is: cool.culturalheritage.org/jaic/articles/jaic30-02-003.html
The section on prevention and collection maintenance is informative. Sadly the conclusion is, the sublimation ,(going from a solid directly to a gas, also called,"outgassing"), cannot be prevented or stopped, only retarded to the degree established by the relative amounts of camphor, nitrates, acids, alcohol, and proprietary chemicals in the original manufacture. Some are more or less stable than others.
There's a lot of info about this problem floating around. Most I've read is empirical. This article was written from scientific studies by chemists concerned with collecting and protection of collections. We all have and love our celluloid knives and have suffered the shock of finding them ruined.

Hope this article helps. J.O'.
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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by Gtrclktr-351 »

Thanks to all who replied. I was afraid of the answer, but not surprised. Any recommendations for AAPK knife mechanics?
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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by herbva »

Gtrclktr-351 wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 7:41 pm Thanks to all who replied. I was afraid of the answer, but not surprised. Any recommendations for AAPK knife mechanics?
What everyone said is absolutely correct. Attached are pictures of a Buster canoe that I rehandled/restored a few years ago using smooth yellow bone. I didn't reattach the shield because it fell apart in pieces when I pried the covers off. Fortuantely, everything else was still usable. The celluloid used by Frank Buster and by some of the other German manufacturers seems to be quite prone to celluloid outgassing, which can suddenly happen with little or no warning, and will quickly destroy your knife and any others around it. I didn't do a lot of work on removing the residual pitting on this one because I decided to keep this one in my EDC stable. You do need to remove those covers on your knife in the pictures ASAP, disassemble the knife and thoroughly clean all parts, making sure that you remove the green residual outgassing crap (sand and /or use a stiff wire brush). Then, when you are ready, reassemble and rehandle with the material of your choice.
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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by Mumbleypeg »

Gtrclktr-351 wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 7:41 pm Thanks to all who replied. I was afraid of the answer, but not surprised. Any recommendations for AAPK knife mechanics?


Go here viewforum.php?f=37. Find a member who does replacement of handle covers, and whose work you like. Send a PM or email to them (more than one person if you wish) requesting what you want done, with pictures of the knife. From there you will likely get a reply.

My recommendation is do NOT simply make a post asking who wants to work on your knife. From personal experience you’re not likely to get a response. Most good knife mechanics already have a backlog of work so they rarely need to solicit it. And expect to pay a good mechanic for a good job.

Ken

Edit: sorry, Herb replied at the same time I was typing my post. ::facepalm::
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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by Gtrclktr-351 »

Again, thanks to everyone for sharing their knowledge and recommendations. I was able to remove the scales, with one broken pin. Was surprised how bad the liners looked, but after a little work it seems to be “surface damage. Now to decide if I want to tackle an amateur rehandle, or pay someone to do it right. You live and learn. Gonna have to give my two “end of day” Roosters a closer look.
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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by Ridgegrass »

Nice resto Herb ::tu:: J.O'.
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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by Gtrclktr-351 »

herbva wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 8:13 pm
Gtrclktr-351 wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 7:41 pm Thanks to all who replied. I was afraid of the answer, but not surprised. Any recommendations for AAPK knife mechanics?
What everyone said is absolutely correct. Attached are pictures of a Buster canoe that I rehandled/restored a few years ago using smooth yellow bone. I didn't reattach the shield because it fell apart in pieces when I pried the covers off. Fortuantely, everything else was still usable. The celluloid used by Frank Buster and by some of the other German manufacturers seems to be quite prone to celluloid outgassing, which can suddenly happen with little or no warning, and will quickly destroy your knife and any others around it. I didn't do a lot of work on removing the residual pitting on this one because I decided to keep this one in my EDC stable. You do need to remove those covers on your knife in the pictures ASAP, disassemble the knife and thoroughly clean all parts, making sure that you remove the green residual outgassing crap (sand and /or use a stiff wire brush). Then, when you are ready, reassemble and rehandle with the material of your choice.
You did a nice job on the rehandle.
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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by Modern Slip Joints »

A canittler or any canoe would look good with hard wood sides, preferably a hardwood local native Americans used. Wood has the advantage that most of us ignorant bozos are familiar with working with it and you might already have hardwood trim strips. Oak trim strips are every where and walnut is not hard to find. While it is not as secure as pinning a lot of knife side covers are simply glued on. I'd consider doing a $10 Rough Ryder first.
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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by Reverand »

Now that the handled are gone, scrub the knife with baking soda and an old toothbrush.
When it comes to wood handles, I second that motion. Wood is cheaper and easier to obtain, and is more forgiving. It doesn't have to be hardwood. My first rehandle was in Red Cedar. It makes for a beautiful knife.
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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by Jacknifeben »

Stick with Cattaraugus and never go wrong. Some of these have been hiding in a drawer for over 50 years.
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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by Miller Bro's »

Here's my knife, let yours go too long and it will look like this one ::disgust::
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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by Gtrclktr-351 »

Miller Bro's wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 9:14 pm Here's my knife, let yours go too long and it will look like this one ::disgust::
I believe (HOPE)
I caught mine in time to prevent any further damage.
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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by orvet »

Reverand wrote: Fri May 17, 2024 3:09 am Now that the handled are gone, scrub the knife with baking soda and an old toothbrush.
When it comes to wood handles, I second that motion. Wood is cheaper and easier to obtain, and is more forgiving. It doesn't have to be hardwood. My first rehandle was in Red Cedar. It makes for a beautiful knife.
What Scott said is true, scrub it with baking soda and water and then dry it out well. I used compressed air to dry knives that I've cleaned.

Handle material is a personal choice, I prefer bone or stag handles personally, or a very hardwood like cocobolo, or another member of the rosewood family. African blackwood is one of my favorite hardwood materials. Softer woods like Maple and oak can be used but I think they work better if they are stabilized first.
But those are my personal preferences.
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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by Gtrclktr-351 »

Thanks to everyone who has replied. I‘ve picked up some useful knowledge and been given some ideas as to how I might want to move forward.
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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by Gtrclktr-351 »

Modern Slip Joints wrote: Thu May 16, 2024 11:34 pm A canittler or any canoe would look good with hard wood sides, preferably a hardwood local native Americans used.
I took your advice and decided on wood. Found a set of stabilized spalted birch scales. Thought birch would be perfect on a canoe.
IMG_2366.jpeg
If I am successful, I can get both scales from one scale. If I fail, I’ll have another scale to send to a professional.
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Re: “Out gassing” question for more informed forum members

Post by UtherPending »

Thanks to all for the education! I did not know any of this. Time to go through my knives.
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